Philip Spiess

Dave Buchholz, I hate to say it, but in your wedding picture up above (Post #4801) you look like the young (very young) John Bolton.

Philip Spiess

To recap on my remarks on my fraternity, Phi Gamma Delta (better known as "Fiji"; founded at what became Washington and Jefferson College, originally located at Canonsburg, Pennsylvania) at Hanover College, Indiana:

Yes, we had Jewish brothers in our fraternity; no, we did not have African-American brothers in our fraternity (at that time).  When I joined, in the Spring of 1965, one of my two favorite upperclassmen brothers was Arnie Wasserman, proud Jewish boy from Warwick, Rhode Island.  He kept a tank of piranhas in his room in the fraternity house and would occasionally let me feed them raw hamburger (talk about a feeding frenzy!).

The question of admitting African-Americans to brotherhood in the fraternity was a matter of deep debate within the national fraternity in the mid-1960s.  One line of argument was:  "Blacks now have their own exclusively black fraternities on many college campuses, so why do they need us?"  (The obverse of this coin of wisdom was, of course, "So why do we need them?")  While I was president of my chapter, I attended the national convention, or "Ekklesia," of Phi Gamma Delta in Denver (1966); the question of admitting black members was one of the major issues that was brought up for a national vote that year.  Heavily debated, it was closely defeated, but at the next Ekklesia (1968) a similar motion passed, and African-Americans have been members of Phi Gamma Delta fraternity ever since.

Jerry Ochs

Now I know how our teachers must have felt because all I wanted was info on the sorority/fraternity scene in high school. 

Here is a treat for anglers and photographers.

Steven Levinson

Jerry, you a very funny man.  Apparently, our teachers' collective investment paid off.

Jerry Ochs

Steven,

Thanks for the compliment.  I would say that I am blushing to the roots of my hair but I don't have enough hair to make my case. If I didn't fear what Spiess would make of it I could say I am flushing. 

Philip Spiess

I won't be privy to those remarks.

Steven Levinson

You two should be part of the "Wait, Wait, Don't Tell Me" show on NPR.

Jerry Ochs

Here's something for Phil to sink his teeth into.

ISABELLINE is a pale beige colour. According to legend, its name alludes to the colour of Isabella of Spain’s underwear: she allegedly refused to change her underclothes until her husband Albert of Austria won victory at the Siege of Ostend in 1601.
The siege went on to last 3 years.

Philip Spiess

I refuse to sink my teeth into anyone's underwear.  Undoubtedly her underclothing started out as starched white linen, and only underwent a sea-change to pale beige after being worn for three years.  Frankly, if I were Isabella, I would have changed husbands, as well as my underwear, if that's the best he could do in a siege -- and of Ostend, of all places!  (Better the Ost End of London -- which is no picnic even in the best of times, as "the Ripper" will tell you.)

[Um, wasn't "Isabelline" one of the first rock-and-roll songs, recorded by Chuck Berry in the 1950s?  Just askin'.]

Jerry Ochs

Steven,

I think "shot......chaser" would be apt considering how much we both enjoy a wee dram.

Putting aside this jolly persiflage and badinage so as to return to our alma mater, I would like to ask the women who belong to this forum a somewhat personal question.  After gym class in the changing room, did any girls ever snap each other on the butt with twisted up wet towels?  

Jerry Ochs

This just in.. I hope somebody who knows Yiddish can confirm that the mask in the photo was supposed to have "NYC Strong" printed on it but the designer didn't know to print it from right to left, so it says "NYC Crotch".

Stephen Collett

We had a thing up for a short while there, started by Gail and engaged by Jerry, that was to look at race relations and the frat/soro system and what effects on us. Then we got into the hilarious consideration of the queen´s underwear.

The questions have set me thinking alot about those things. John Compton and I chose each other as locker-partners the first day of 7th grade and he was the first person of color my own age that I had ever had any relationship with. But of course that was only a start and I regret today that we didn´t develop that relationship to include spending more time together in non-sports-related time outside of school. One of the reasons for that, I can answer for my own case, was fraternities. Yes Jerry, wasp, jewish and colored faternities and sororoties. And not only that but cleavages in my wasp community between the wasp (which could include Catholics)frats. Your friends in the final three years would pretty much be decided in your 10th grade choice of frat. Of course we hopped those bounds, and my best friends turned out to be mostly Jewish. And there was dear Bill Sinkford who could glide in and out of most milieux; maybe not so much the heavy BOA jock club but I doubt that bothered him (are you there Bill? I only mean to point you out as an exception to the rule). I have testified in one of our reunion open-mike sessions that my frat was primarily a drinking club and that drinking was the central bling of recruitment and initiation. But I know youth will get into those things on their own, quite without organized help. But the restriction of the field of social relationships were the worst aspect. As I understand it they have been, what? "banned"? Do they live on (we would have) as secret societies? 

Steven Levinson

That's Hebrew, Jerry.  Sheesh!

Steven Levinson

Steve C, the fraternities/sororities obviously exacerbated the social stratification/segregation that was WHHS, but, for me, it began on the first day of the seventh grade.

Jerry Ochs

Steven et al.,

I thought so too, but I googled Yiddish alphabet and the result changed my mind. In addition, I googled nyc crotch and every link called it Yiddish.  Go figure.  Here is one example.

The trouble began when they tried to sell a “NYC Strong” mask using the Yiddish word for strong, shtark. But while Yiddish is written right-to-left, like Hebrew, the Yiddish letters in shtark [שטאַרק] were printed left-to-right [קראַטש], meaning that anyone looking at it the correct way would read shtark backwards – as “crotch.”

Jerry Ochs

Stephen and Steven,

In addition to the barriers thrown up by the GLOs, there was a great divide regarding dating.  The way I remember it, the white boys and the black boys agreed that nobody was taking away "their women".  Regarding anti-Semitism, I didn't sense it as being ubiquitous, but I was painfully naive and didn't know or care who was Jewish and who was not until the GLO pledging began.  Didn't that also have overtones of males protecting their females from predators?

Judy Holtzer (Knopf)

We should all know by this time that Jerry is a thorough researcher. He is correct about everything.....

Although the Yiddish could possibly sound out as "crutch" as well as "crotch".....

Steven Levinson

Jerry, "uncle" on the Yiddish thing.  Thorough research by you, as usual.  There must have been some antisemitism at WHHS (as in the boys' PE department), but that's not what I experienced from day one.  It was the social stratification and segregation, self-imposed by the kids (especially the Avondale, Bond Hill, and Roselawn Jews, who Danny Brown dubbed "the neaties").  

Jerry Ochs

You should have cried "feter" .  

Regarding WHHS, some people take comfort in being "with their own kind" but I prefer not to be.

Regarding Yiddish, I was a house guest in Hollywood in 1970 or so.  My host was a producer and comedy writer.  I bring this up because Carl Reiner passed away and through my host I was able to meet him along with Rob and their wives at a gallery opening.  During my stay, I learned more Yiddish than I could retain but I have managed to pass on a few useful words to my Japanese wife and our two sons.
 

Philip Spiess

By not being in a high school fraternity (or sorority) at Walnut Hills (not that any of them would have necessarily accepted me -- especially the sororities), and happily associating with both Christian and Jewish friends, from a vareiety of suburbs, over my six years of high school (without thinking about the separatism of the groups at all), and not being (I think) connected with any social clique (but wait! was I a part of the theatrical clique?), I felt I was friends with a lot of different groups (not that I even thought of them as different groups).

And now -- happy circumstance! -- because of this Forum, I have not only connected with old friends, but I also have become acquainted with folks I didn't know all that well in high school -- because of mutual interests that we have expressed on this Forum.  Gott sei dankt!

[Steve Levinson:  What are the "neaties"?]

Jerry Ochs

Phil,

Don't you remember?  The Neaties were a Beatles tribute band. 

Judy Holtzer (Knopf)

My Zionist friends and I called neighborhoods like Roselawn or Skokie (Chicago IL) "the golden gateless ghetto". Back in the 60s, this slogan made lots of sense to me. I refused to learn Yiddish because it was the language of the ghetto, the language of Jews who were meek and afraid and never fought back against their enemies. So Jews migrated to America, mainly to NY, where they formed their own enclaves into which "the other" seldom ventured, except, perhaps, for a great pastrami sandwich. The next generation spoke good English, got jobs outside the enclave, and moved to nice suburbs. They moved their families into the suburb onto their cousins, and behold! a golden gateless ghetto is formed.

I have no idea if the "Jewish sororities" came about this way, but commonsense tells me that they probably started because the Jewish girls who were sorority-minded were turned down by the established sororities because they were Jewish.

Contrary to the "yiddishkeit" that flourished even in the 60s in the golden gateless ghettoes, although I know nothing about the Jewish sororities, I rather doubt that there was anything inherently "Jewish" about anything that happened in them. I stand to be corrected if anyone wishes to correct me.

Judy Holtzer (Knopf)

Jerry: Please help me out. I googled "neaties" with and without Beatles, and all I got were hangers.

Steven Levinson

Phil, as far as I know, Danny Brown coined the term, at the pre-Beatles time that he did, out of whole cloth.  As usual, he hit the nail on the head.

Gail Weintraub (Stern)

It is with profound sadness that I inform you of the passing of Mike Weiner this morning from complications of acute myeloid leukemia. May Mike's memory always be a blessing. RIP dear classmate.

I am posting exerpts from Mike's obituary on his 'In Memory' page. Please add your comments and memories of Mike on that page.