Florence (Now Jean) Ager

My first educational trauma resulted from the dual meaning of "please" in Cincinnati. I was in 2nd grade at Miss Doherty's. Having been duly disciplined by parents and Miss Doherty's  (where I learned to curtsy the first day of school), I was never intentionally rude. I was also an observer of the difference between personal  encounters and business transactions. Thus, on that fateful fall morning when I decided to purchase 2 pencils at the school store I decided that it was sufficient to ask if I "may" have 2 pencils. As the headmistress quickly opened the door, I spoke my rehearsed request, "May I buy 2 pencils?" the headmistress responded, "Please?" Assuming that she was quite elderly and hard of hearing, I repeated my request. Again, Miss Jones said this time more forcibly, "Please! " Now convinced that this poor woman was frustrated by a major hearing loss, I spoke my request even more loudly. This led to my sitting in her office until my mother arrived to bring me home. I don't recall trying to explain myself as I was too upset and/or feared that I might be further misunderstood. Is it any wonder that this 2nd grade delinquent became a child psychologist? 

Ira Goldberg

Well, y'all. Bless your hearts! I was about to say that recently I say neither please, what nor huh? Perhaps it's a matter of hearing less well or ignoring more often. I'm in disbelief that might mean aging is real. We were just 18! Please?

Gail Weintraub (Stern)

Accents. You may know that I lived in Kentucky and commuted to WHHS throughout my Effie and E-flat years. It was during my 7th grade year that my English teacher (I sure wish that I could remember her name!) took it upon herself to eliminate my Southern twang. She met with me after school many times until she was satisfied that she had accomplished her mission. To this day, whenever I am asked where I am from, I reply by asking, "Where do you think?" Almost 100% of the time, the answer is "Philidelphia". I guess my English teacher was from Philly and I took on her accent! 

Steven Levinson

"Uncle" Tom Trousdell, my 6th grade science teacher and Lotspeich School's head PE teacher, went on a rampage against "what?" and "huh?"  If you said "What?," he responded, "Watt?  Are you a light bulb?"  If you uttered "Huh?," his retort was, "A pig says 'huh'; kick him in the belly, and he says 'uh huh.'" I've never forgotten that, although I still commit the same sins of word choice.

Paul Simons

Re: Philadelphia accent - I’ve been living in Philadelphia suburbs since about 1976 and working in various suburbs and also Center City. South Philly where the Italian Market is doesn’t sound the same as Kensington where the opioid overdoses are and to my memory neither sounds like Gail or anyone at WHHS. We all sound like Center City where the banks and law firms and telecom companies are like in most cities. Right.

Ira - Puh-leeze! All we have to do is get to a wormhole in the center of a galaxy and time goes backwards! It’s true, I saw it in a movie called “Interstellar”. Why wouldn’t it be true? Of COURSE we can all be 18 again!

Philip Spiess

All:  In our minds -- if not in our hearts -- we know we are still 18; I realized years ago that my truly creative period was circa 15 to 20 years of age; everything after that has been repetitive and imitative, if you've noticed on The Forum (if you've been paying attention).

(Uh, Steve Levinson:  Have you ever kicked a pig in its belly?  It will not grunt "uh, huh"; it will bite you!  Have I ever kicked a pig either?  Uh, no; but if you kick me, the least I will say will be something stronger than just "Uh, huh!" -- and it won't be words that you'll find in the Bible, either!)

Gail:  I never knew (then) that you were from Kentucky:  you fit so well into our class, and, indeed, were one of the leaders of it.

For Dick Murdoch:  One of my favorite jokes [apropos of pronunciation]:  A guy goes into a bar with his dog, and the bartender says, "You can't bring a dog in here!"  The guy says, "But this is my talking dog, Ralph, my buddy!"  The bartender says, "Stop right there; I've heard way too many talking dog stories in my time."  The guy says, "But he really does talk!  Listen:  Well, Ralph, tell the bartender your name."  And the dog goes [you have to tell this orally with a really guttural bark]:  "Ralph!"  "Yeah, Ralph!" says the guy, and the bartender says, "I don't believe this; get the hell out!"  "No, wait!" says the guy; "Ralph can answer any question I ask him -- just watch!"  And he says to the dog, "Well, Ralph, old boy, how's life been treating you?"  And the dog goes "Rough!" (again said with a guttural bark).  "Rough, huh?" says the guy; as the bartender starts to respond angrily, the guy interrupts with, "Say, Ralph old boy, what do you call the covering over the top of a house?"  "Roof!" the dog goes (again loudly and gutturally), and the guy says, "Right", as the bartender says, "I can't stand this!  You and that dog get the hell out of here now!"  But the guy insists, "No, wait!  Not only can this dog talk, but he knows lots of sports statistics, too!"  And he asks, "Ralph, who was the greatest hitter the New York Yankees ever had?"  And the dog growls (yes, telling it, you must really growl), "Ruth!"  At this, the bartender, now in a fury, throws the guy and the dog out through the bar's swinging doors into the street.  And, as they're lying bleeding in the gutter, the dog turns to the man and says, "What's the matter?  Was it Gehrig?"

Jerry Ochs

My grandfather did not like the word "Hey" and would say, "Hay is for horses!" whenever I uttered it.

I learned from my English friends that using "she" for a (usually older) woman instead of her name in her presence would evoke the phrase, "Who's she?  She's the cat's mother."  The first time I was scolded in that way I thought the speaker was daft.

Speaking of Midwesterisms, did your mother red the table after a meal?  Did she call a bell pepper a mango?

Laura Reid (Pease)

Love this conversation about accents, especially Gail's teacher trying to get rid of her twang.  My southern accent had a big effect on my life.  First of all, my Mom and Dad were both from Kentucky, my Dad from Danville, and my Mom from Burkesville, in south central Kentucky.  They both had southern accents.  My Dad was a chemical engineer with P&G and we lived in 7 southern states from the time I was born until Dad was transferred to Cincinnati and I was enrolled in the second grade at Hyde Park Elementary.  On day 2, my elderly teacher called my Mom and said she couldn't understand a word I said because of my southern accent.  On day 5, the same teacher complained to the principal that I was left handed.  The principal told the teacher to deal with it; two weeks later I was in the third grade.

That, my classmates, is why I am a year younger than the rest of you.....my Mom told her friends that I skipped a grade because I was so smart; my Dad said I skipped a grade because I was a pain in the a__!

Ann Shepard (Rueve)

ALL of the stories of "please" have made me chuckle!  I don't ever remember being told NOT to use it when I was growing up. I don't recall when I stopped, but it was probably sometime in tenth or eleventh grade, when I wanted to seem more sophisticated.  During that time, I started calling my parents by their first names and started smoking too! I'm curious about its replacement.  You have to make certain your inflection is correct to make the statement a question, or you may get a reply you hadn't expected.  For instance, "excuse me" or "pardon me" may get a response, "I didn't hear you burp!!"

Like Richard, it took a while longer to drop the "r" from Washington, but I am proud to say, I never was from Cincinnat-ah or Ohi-ah!

The reverse of Gail's story happened to me.  I spent three years in school in Tennessee at Knoxville College, a historically black college.  It was a tiny school of perhaps 1000 students.  There was a small Cincinnati contingent, but most of the students were from the south, primarily Tennessee and Georgia.  It took no time for me to refer to where I lived as Knox-vull TIN-essee.  (Ira, my husband was from Louisville.  He taught me how to correctly pronounce it, since I had always called it Lewy-ville.  I can almost say it now as one syllable, with the stress on the Lou-uh-vull.) To this day, my southern accent slips out, especially after the slightest infusion of alcohol.

Judy Holtzer (Knopf)

Laura, I just LOVE your story!

Jerry, Of course it was a mango!!!

Dick, I was Cincinnati-born and -bred, my mom moved to Cincinnati from Hungary as a girl of about 10 and worked like all H to learn English to get out of the humiliation of being placed second grade, my father was born in New York but was brought up in the small-town of Springfield Ohio, and I remember my grandparents still having "foreign" accents. My point is that I never say or said "WaRSHington". Same for the rest of the words you used as examples. Methinks that my mother was very careful with pronunciations when I was little because of her "foreignness" when she was a child. It's all about fitting in, from the 1920s to the 1960s to 2020 when my grandchildren are caught up in the same mishugass (craziness).

Florence, What was the woman's PROBLEM??? I don't understand why you got into trouble.

Philip Spiess

Ann:  You may be interested to know that in the very early days of Cincinnati (that is, somewhere between 1788 and 1800 or so), some distinguished early leaders of the city insisted that it should be pronounced (maybe even spelled) "Cincinnata" -- trading on the Latin feminine singular ending -- because cities were always considered feminine.  This, of course, flew in the face of how General Arthur St. Clair had named the city; he named it after the Revolutionary War officers' organization, the Society of the Cincinnati, which cast the ending of "Cincinnati" in Latin's masculine plural.  (It was obvious how to correctly pronounce "Ohio" if you knew the old riddle, "What's round at both ends and high in the middle?"). And I used to drive my Middle School students crazy with the question, "How do you pronounce the capital of Kentucky -- 'Lewisville' or 'Louieville'?"  (The answer, of course, is Frankfort.  You can do the same thing with New Orleans and the capital of Louisiana.)

Although I've seen "mango" sometimes applied to bell peppers in cookbooks, my family always called them "peppers."  But how many of you grew up in familes (like I did) who liberally laced their talk about food with German phrases, such as "Schmierkase," "Leberwurst," and "Sauerbraten"?

Dale Gieringer

 Gail -  

    Honestly, even if you didn't open your mouth,  I'd take you for a Philadelphia lady just by your looks.   It's your well kempt long hair, earrings, and breezy sophisticated demeanor.  

    My mom taught me to speak properly and avoid Cincinnati barbarisms.  Having done so, I was astounded to be told by a Cincinnati friend that I spoke with a London accent.  Actually, the best I can do is Chicago.   

Sally Fox (Korkin)

Phil - yesterday I checked out all my Clifton School class photos which I have saved.  I was in Miss Scarborough's class - I was sick the day the class photo was taken.  My mother wrote everyone's names in each row on the back of the photo and wrote at the top: Sally Fox (sick).  You were in my class in 1st, 2nd, and 5th grades.  So I was in your 1st grade class, and I know I never learned to say "please" from Miss Scarborough! I have never used it in that context. 

Paul Simons

Jerry Ochs

God bless America

Laura Reid (Pease)

Judy, and I loved YOUR story also.  Very interesting how determined your Mother was to fit in, and how it affected your pronunciation.  We are certainly products of our families.  What about your Mother's parents; did they arrive from Hungary with your Mom (age 10) to flee from the war?

Jon Singer

Judy's folks and my parents were friends. I don't recall any accents. Her dad was smarter than all getout and her mom cut a hard bargain.  When I was 18 or so she was unwilling to drop the offering price for their beater, a Dodge Dart.  I ended up with my maternal grandmother brother's Plymouth.  That ride had as much girl attracting power as Si's 57 Plymouth with the '56 replacement engine.  Maybe he can tell you how Katona and I as occupants never picked up one stray parochial school girl hanging out on Harrison Ave.

As to "please", while in the first of 4 decades that we lived on Mitchell Ave, wife Ruth had our second child at the St. Bernard pool on opening day.  A photographer secured permission and The Enquirer posted a picture of our toddler crying in his mother's arms. I still have a copy somewhere. The story identified this quite attractive lady (my perspective).  That night some gentleman from the dark side of life without obligation and honor called.  He offered to use his tongue in an unusual way on her anatomy.  Ruth wasn't quite sure she understood his intent and politely said "please." Seemingly confused by her acceptance, she told me he promptly hung up. 

Judy Holtzer (Knopf)

Laura, We could have a long and interesting conversation about "fitting in", but for now, I'll just answer your question about when my mother's family came to America. It was about 1921-22, since Mom was 9 or 10. My grandfather was a POW from WWI, and my poor grandmother had an uncertain and terrible wait until his safe return. My mother told me that once they were in American and children in school learning English, my grandmother insisted on only English being spoken. Growing up, the only Hungarian I heard was when a letter was read aloud or the few simple nursery rhymes I was taught.

Jon, It was interesting to hear your impression about my parents. How did you discover that my Dad was very smart? My Mom, whom I would rather label stubborn as all h--l, probably learned to drive a hard bargain through the Pioneer Women rummage sales.... Sometimes they received really really nice things to sell, but because it was a "rummage" sale, women wanted to get a BARGAIN. Mom would make sure that the beloved Pioneer Women got what they deserved from those sales. Where was I when this car sale was being negotiated? I don't remember her selling a car, so maybe I was in Israel? Jon is correct. Our parents were friends. His Dad was a wonderful carpenter, and when my parents needed new living room furniture, he made a sofa and 2 chairs that were so strong and so confortable that my children as teenagers would fall asleep on them! I loved talking with both of Jon's parents. The Singer house was a warm and fascinating place for parochial ole me. I was Jon's little sister's youth group leader, and I dated his older brother a couple of times. But Jon and I never spoke or had any connection until much, much later. Kind of weird, considering.....

Becky Payne (Shockley)

Phil: I must correct your lyrics to the Ohio sesquicentennial song, which I remember learning in 1st grade (1953):

"It's High in the middle, and it's Round on the ends, it's

OH - HI - OH!!"

(The last 3 notes are very long. I'd sing it for you if I knew how to record it on my computer...!)

=========================================================================

CORRECTION: Although the 1st grade song we learned was correct, I discovered that your version of the lyrics are in the Ohio State Songbook, so I stand corrected! (But my version is shorter and easier to sing!)

Sandy Steele (Bauman)

I love Laura's story about her accent. I also am left handed, and early on, my first grade teacher wanted to make me write right handed, but my Mom told the teacher NO! I was moved to a more progressive teacher, but didn't get to skip a grade like Laura😊

Margery Erhardt (Schrader)

Several comments:

Phil – you mention Elena Fuentes. Elena and I were friends….did sleepovers, etc. I know she didn’t graduate with us but I can’t remember if she changed schools. Becky Hamlin was in our class but she went with her father (a professor) to South America for a year and upon her return she enrolled in the class behind us as was their plan. I can’t remember if the same thing happened to Elena as her father was also a professor. Anne Keating also started with us (again a professor father) but they also left for Peru I believe for the same reason (sabbaticals, etc.) I would love to know what Elena is doing today.

“Please” was definitely a Cincinnati word. I didn’t use it much growing up as my mother had something against it though I don’t know what. But I did start using it when I moved south after graduation as it sounded more chic than “what” or “hey”. Also, I was in charge of a language lab at a southern college headed by a Dr. Elizabeth Hawk who was an Ohio native. As I had reasonable “General American English” I was to train our women college students to get rid of their southern accents since they were going into Speech Therapy. She hated…ba ba and would constantly tell them they sounded like sheep saying goodbye! But I did have to let my “warsh” go…as that didn’t meet with her approval!

“Please” again…I have a good childhood friend (she attended Miss Doherty's) living in Atlanta and we talk several times a week. So yesterday, during our conversation, I asked her what she says if she doesn’t understand what someone has said to her and she immediately said “please”. I mention that this has been an ongoing discussion in our WH class and she said that it is definitely a Cincinnati pronunciation. In fact, when she married and she and her husband traveled, several times she was stopped by a stranger who would say…” you’re from Cincinnati”. We have fun talking about past experiences such as camp, Mme. Fefe’s, and how she wanted to attend WH but her parents insisted that she attend Miss Doherty's. She is losing many of her HS former friends and we both have lost our husbands so our talks mean a lot to both of us.

Paul Simons

The word “Please?” - with the uptalk accent, pitch rising as it’s spoken - does seem to be a request for the repetition of a previous word or phrase. But what about “Please.” in a firm, even monotone or even “Oh, PLEASE!!” in the dreaded, ominous downward moving pitch, obviously meaning that the previous words or phrases are absurd, ridiculous, not credible? I don’t have anything beyond that to contribute except a warning to be sure people understand what you mean because these days misunderstandings can escalate quickly. 

Jerry Ochs

Paul's comment reminded me of this.

A linguist taught a class at an American university and explained that a double negative could make a positive, but there was no language in the world in which a double positive made a negative. A heckler replied bluntly "Yeah, right." --Keene 22:26, 12 January 2008 (UTC)

Ann Shepard (Rueve)

Interestingly enough, this just appeared on my Facebook timeline. https://www.npr.org/2020/09/07/909224971/often-its-not-what-you-say-but-how-you-say-it

Sandy Steele (Bauman)

Margie,  Elena was a sorority sister of mine at UC. I believe she graduated from Aiken High School. Her husband, Bill, passed away about four years ago. She always gets a group of us together for lunch ( 3-4 times a year) at Camp Washington Chili Parlor. She lives in Florida part of the year.