Ashley Brown

It is not political Jerry. Banning refugees from the US on Holocaust Remembrance Day is an obscenity. ORR history of denying entry to Jews and others fleeing Hitler is horrible stain on our history. For this buffoonish purported Oresidrnt to repeat it is simply obscene.

Peter Crockett

Friends,

I understand that it may be necessary to minimize politics on this forum, and the few online discussions I've seen tend more toward pontification without listening.

I would love to share thoughts with like-minded classmates about what is to be done now. Perhaps another forum on this page? Perhaps two on this page: one for those who think our nation is rising to the highest and one for those who think we could do better. Or could we surpass that and learn to listen to each other and end divisiveness at least in our small community?

Jeff Daum

Peter here's a thought:  If you would like to start an open policitally focused dialog, why not start it on your own profile page, and then post on the Message Forum that you are doing that?  

Bonnie Altman (Templeton)

Jerry and Ashley, I am with you. If one of the best classes to graduate from WHHS, can not discuss rising global fascism and climate change (human induced or otherwise), who can?  Let's put our heads together and look for solutions to these very serious problems. 

Philip Spiess

So far I've gone with Gene Stern's admonition to not discuss politics on this Forum, because it apparently broke up the class of 1963's class discussions in such a Forum.  Yes, I've discussed my political outlooks with classmates -- but only on the private Class Profile section of this Website, with individual classmates, and that seems to work for me (and them).

Dale Gieringer

     I share Bonnie's frustration about not commenting on the spectacle in Washington, but sidestepping the delicate issue of politics let me put in a word about climate change.  This is an issue that I became intimately involved in before most people heard of it back in 1976, when I worked as a Congressional fellow for the House Committee on Science and Technology.    There I was assigned the duty of organizing the first Congressional hearings on climate change research.    The Committee was chaired by Rep. George Brown, a cigar-chomping, gruff Quaker from Escondido, CA whose looks reminded me of a used car dealer, but who was the only Congressman with a science degree (industrial physics).  The goal of the hearings was to fund climate research, with an eye to foreseeing any long-term changes that might seriously affect the nation's economy & security.   When we started out, we had no idea what we were looking for.  A popular theory at that time, popularized by Dr. Reid Bryson,  was that there was a danger of a recurrence of a "Little Ice Age" of the kind that brought unprecedented cold to Europe and America c. 1600-1800.  What we heard from the scientists who testified was something else.     Almost all of  the climatologists at the hearings warned of the danger of global warming due to a build-up in CO2 from fossil fuel combustion.   While cautioning that it was too early to detect whether this warming was actually happening, they urged the committee to support further research - satellites, ocean sensors, computer models, etc. - to determine whether it was real.  If so, they predicted that the effects would likely be detected within another 15 - 20 years - i.e., the early 1990s.   Their testimony was sufficiently impressive that I highlighted the danger of CO2 warming in the committee report, and Congress duly passed legislation funding the necessary research.  Flash forward to the early 1990s, and the scientists  detected warming in the amount they'd predicted in our 1976 hearings.  That has always impressed me as the best long-range weather prediction I ever heard.   (Not that I was totally surprised, having studied astronomy in college and learned how accurately scientists could predict such things as the greenhouse effect on Venus).     Since then, I've seen glaciers melting firsthand:  The Columbia glacier in the Canadian Rockies came down nearly to the visitor's parking lot when I first visited in 1968, but has since retreated over the crest of a hill;   the Franz Josef glacier in New Zealand, which I visited in 2008, is now no longer accessible to hikers;  the Greenland ice packs can be seen sweating torrents from the airplane;  and flying almost directly over the north pole last summer, I saw open ocean.   "Alternative facts" won't dissuade me from the conclusion that humankind is inexorably toasting our planet with our gluttinous appetite for energy.

Jerry Ochs

Instead of discussing politics, I'd like to look at civics, a subject that covers our rights and duties as citizens.
The population of the U.S.A. is somwhere near 325 million. The number of eligible voters is roughly 230 million, give or take a few million. About 140 million people voted in the 2016 presidential election.  Let's say half voted for each major candidate. Correct me if I am wrong: 60% of eligible voters bothered to cast a ballot, so 30% of eligible voters chose the current president. That also means 20% of the entire population made a decision that affects them and the other 80%. Question: is this how democracy is supposed to work? 

Philip Spiess

No -- though the Founding Fathers were aware of that (cf. "The Federalist" papers).  As Winston Churchill supposedly once said, "Democracy is the worst form of government -- except for all the others."

Bonnie Altman (Templeton)

Dale, thanks for insights into climate change from the congresssional perspective. By 1976 I had finished my Ph.D and was teaching introductory Biology and included a lecture on the rise of atmospheric CO2 since the industrial revolution that began in the mid 19th century.   

The following quote by Dietrich Bonhoeffer and my response to it will explain why I am so afraid of the current policies.

"First they came for the Communists, but I was not a Communist so I did not speak out. Then they came for the socialists and the Trade Unionists, but I was neither, so I did not speak out.  Then they came for the Jews, but I was not a Jew so I did not speak out.  And when they came for me, there was no one left to speak out for me."

My updated version:

First they came for the African Americans and I spoke out even though I am not an African American.  Then they came for the Mexicans and I am speaking out even though I am not Mexican.  Now they come for Muslims and I am speaking out even though I am not Muslim. When they come for the Jews--who will speak out for me?

For those whom I have offended, Mea Culpa.

Jerry Ochs

Hear, Hear!   According to Edmund Burke,

"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent."

Helen Sayrs (Hurley)

I'm with Bonnie & Dale on this! 

Mary Vore (Iwamoto)

Ditto!!  The last time I was this concerned about our country was during the Vietnam war era, e.g., when the Kent State students were shot by the National Guard.  Next week we go to Vietnam as tourists, where we will be welcomed.  There is both irony and hope in this.  Maybe in 40 years, my children or grandchildren will be able to visit these Muslim countries and be similarly welcomed.  But, what can we do now to ensure this can happen?  I would welcome learning from my WHHS classmates their ideas on effective actions. 

Nelson Abanto

I have been following this discussion but not participating because I am deeply conflicted on the matter of Donald Trump and his supporters.  I think everyone knows I was a Hillary fan and tried very hard to get her elected.  I lost and the other side won fair and square.  I am prepared to live with that result.  Trump is doing exactly what he said he would do and no one can be surprised.  What astounds me is this stream of blatant lies that is coming from the White House.  Most recently we are being told that the travel ban on Muslims is not a travel ban and is not on Muslims.  Do words mean anything?  How can you have an intelligent dialogue with someone who denies what he said a day before or someone who, when caught in a bare faced lie says "it wasn't a lie but an alternative fact".

I personally think this group can handle a discussion (even a heated discussion) on political issues.  I personally like to hear an intelligent presentation of the other side of the argument especially by very intelligent people.  It helps me sharpen my opinion and points out the weaknesses in my views.  It is hard to see this happening when one side won't admit the simplest of facts.

Jerry Ochs

According to Edmund Burke or Thomas Jefferson or Mark Twain or Dorothy Parker,

"All tyranny needs to gain a foothold is for people of good conscience to remain silent."

I fear I have been guity of uttering an alternative fact.  It may be contagious.  Can anybody tell me who wrote the above or the one about evil triumphing when good men do nothing?  A citation would be appreciated.

P.S. The revolution will be tweeted.

Philip Spiess

Jerry:  You were right (more or less) the first time:  the quote is generally attributed to Edmund Burke; as I copied it into my chapbook of quotations I like many years ago, and have oft quoted it since, it reads:

"The only way for treason to prosper is for good men to do nothing."

But this is apparently not quite correct; the actual wording of the quote is unknown, and there are many variations of it abroad in the world; and it is disputed whether Burke actually said it at all (we have no source, and it is not found in his published writings).  What many consider the definitive statement (if it is Burke) is this:

"All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing."

This is quite close to something John Stuart Mill said in an address in 1867, and the Greek philosopher Plato said this in antiquity (uh, yes, "attributed"):

"The penalty good men pay for indifference to public affairs is to be ruled by evil men."

However, we do know that Edmund Burke said this (1784):  "The people never give up their liberties but under some delusion."

-- Spiess

Ann Shepard (Rueve)

Hey, I can handle any discussion, as long as it's civil and well thought out, unlike some of the comments on Facebook and Twitter. I promise, I will never "unfriend" ANY of you. 

Personally, as an African American, I haven't felt this anxious, since they took the lunch counter seats out of Western Avenue Drugstore, across from the campus of my alma mater, Knoxville College, in 1966. 

Stephen (Steve) Dixon

This is all good stuff. It's nice to witness a political exchange among intelligent, civil people.

But, I wonder if it might not dominate the flow too much and, also, push some people out who might find themselves too much in the minority.

I wonder if it is possible for the admins to create a separate discussion forum for "Issues." That would allow the people willing to wrangle the opportunity to engage one another and leave the basic message Forum for remembrances and life stories etc.

As for me and my house, we will wrangle.

Steven Levinson

Now we're really talking!  It's good for friends civilly to speak what's on their minds about what's important to them.  God bless us every one.

David M. Schneider

This has gotten really good.  Thanks to everyone for contributing.  I especially enjoyed Dale's personal insights  on some of the initial concerns about climate change, and now it's early devastating results.  Hey, thankfully we've been able to dodge the predicted "second" Ice Age, so far.  And it was apparent to me that democracy could not always produce the best results when Adam Lambert didn't win American Idol.   These are the same people who vote for our government representatives.  Some of this is intended humor... although I am no Spiess and therefore it might be misinterpreted as an alternative fact.  Love to all.

Philip Spiess

On "alternative facts," let me quote P. D. Q. Bach [a.k.a. Peter Schickele, who performed at the re-opening of the renovated Cincinnati Music Hall in the 1970s (1980s?), running around the horseshoe of the top balcony railing and climbing down the proscenium arch, only to take a pratfall midstage on his way to the conductor's podium]:  "I mean, truth's truth.  You can't have opinions about truth."

Jeff Daum

OK, I've held back long enough.  Phil, On "alternative facts,"and "You can't have opinions about truth." Of course you can, if you are Trump.

Philip Spiess

"'What is Truth?' said jesting Pilate, and would not stay for an answer." [-- Sir Francis Bacon, "Of Truth," Essays -- Civil and Moral (1625).]

Jerry Ochs

From one of the many twiiter accounts opened by national park rangers, employees of NASA, NOAA,  and the various Cabinet departments. At first I thought use of "The Resistance" was a bit over the top, but the people running these accounts are inside a government that needs to be resisted.

"Hoover, Pierce, Fillmore, and Tyler already high-fiveing in the afterlife, knowing they'll all move down a spot on future Worst POTUS lists."

For Phil,

AltSmithsonian ‏@AltSmithsonian Jan 31

Philip Spiess

Yeah, I see Buchanan may not move much further down the list (Frannie Grace always said she was related to him -- she originally said he was her great-grandfather, but I reminded her tartly that he was our only bachelor president).  And thanks, Jerry, for the Smithsonian reference -- didn't know it.  

Jerry Ochs

Enough with the politics for a moment.  Stand up and do the Havana two-step.  It will get your blood flowing.