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09/04/20 11:52 AM #4973    

 

Dale Gieringer

    I never thought of "please" as a Cincinnati colloquialism, though it's pleasant to the ear.  More ear-grating is the common Cincinnati mispronunciation, "warsh," as in  "Warsh your clothes, then wrench em out" (pronounced with a midwestern nasal twang).   My mother, who was from Wisconsin,  abhorred  it as a  vulgarism specific to Cincinnati.   Also on her watch list, "heliocopter" and "nucular power."  My dad, a native Cincinnatian, mispronounced them all.  Maybe that's a reason she divorced him.   

 

 


09/04/20 01:47 PM #4974    

 

Jeff Daum

I have used please for as long as I can remember, and always thought it was a shortened form of please repeat that.  


09/04/20 02:04 PM #4975    

 

Steven Levinson

Now what is going on in that Warshington, D.C., the seat of national guv'ment?


09/04/20 04:38 PM #4976    

 

Gail Weintraub (Stern)

Judy, your compliment made my day. Thank you for your kindness.

Gene, my Kentucky relatives, who didn't live in the northern part of the state, always said "please". I thought that was where I picked it up. I don't know when I actually stopped saying "please" but I think it was at WHHS. I almost wish I hadn't. It always felt so Southern and genteel to me. We learn so many things on this Message Forum.


09/05/20 01:03 AM #4977    

 

Philip Spiess

Sally Fox:  My mother, my sister, and I, all readers, all learned to read from Miss Scarborough in 1st Grade; I remember her as a quiet and kind teacher.  My mother (were she still alive), my sister, and I would all attest to Miss Scarborough instructing us to say "Please?" rather than "What?" (as, I believe, part of Cincinnati's German heritage, though "Scarborough" is certainly an English name).  In this she was less successful than in teaching reading, as we all continued (and continue) to say "What?", though we acknowledge her effort.

Further, Rich Beziat, whom I have recently reconnected with (he's in Nashville, Tennessee), has sent me copies of most of our Clifton School class pictures (he says that Elena Fuentes has all of them; my mother accidentally left ours behind when she moved out of our Clifton house).  It's a little hard to tell which years they are (except for our aging in them, year by year); I suspect 1st Grade is not among them (perhaps Rich was not in our 1st Grade Class), as I do not see you in any of them, and I am pretty darn sure, Sally, I would recognize you if you were!

All:  So, to sum up the previous comments, the German "Please?", far politer than the vulgar "What?", and possibly carrying with it from Cincinnati that strain of gentle courtesy down the Dixie Highway to the Old South of Kentucky, never made it as far as Carol McCammon's West Virginia.

Judy:  Though I blush (well, maybe) to boast it, I remember well back before 1st Grade to my Nursery School days at the University of Cincinnati (the College of Home Economics, of which my mother was a graduate, was housed in the Women's Building on campus, behind the Van Wormer Library, and ran a training nursery school on the top floor).  I remember the outdoor roof playground with its jungle gym and storage shed; the three rooms allotted to the nursery school -- one, a general purpose room with a skylight, where we danced to the "Chinese Dolls' Dance" from Tchaikovski's The Nutcracker; one (the middle room, with access to the roof playground), the lunchroom, which also held the favorite books they read to us (Dr. Seuss's "Horton the Elephant"; I also remember the lunches -- they occasionally served liver, which I hated, and junket, which I loved, also rhubarb pudding, which I also loved, and still do); and one, at the south end of the hall, which housed our cots for naptime.  The cots, which I found to be dreadfully uncomfortable, must have been World War II Army cots; while we were supposedly napping, the teachers would play records; we could bring in our own to play (all 78 r.p.m. at that time), and I took in "The Abba-Dabba Honeymoon" and "Hooray for Honkety Hank and His Hootnanny Automobile."

But I never tackled to naptime (I'm still an insomniac), and, more often than not, I contrived to convince the head teacher to take me, while the others were napping, on a tour of the Women's Building.  Indulgently, she let me operate the old-style elevator, with its outer door, then its inner closing gate, then turning a key to operate the elevator (she had to hold me up to do this), then pushing the floor button -- and away we'd go!  I always opted for the sub-basement (its name intrigued me), but there were fascinations down there:  the master time clock that operated all of the clocks in the building; the girls' swimming pool (and their dressing room with hair-dryers), which was filled by a faucet exuding from the mouth of a sardonic Greek mask (much like those in the Walnut Hills auditorium or at the Pavilion cascade in Ault Park); the coal chute; and so on.  Halcyon days!

Dale:  Should "nucular power" be applied to Fernald, Ohio?  (I had no idea that I spoke with a Midwestern "accent" -- though my good friend Jim Stillwell, of our class, spoke with a "twang" or drawl which I considered must be Midwestern -- until I moved to the East coast.)  And then I married a northern New Englander with a whole different set of syllabic pronunciations!


09/05/20 08:24 AM #4978    

 

Judy Holtzer (Knopf)

About a "Midwestern accent": Although I can't recall exactly when I was put on the spot because of my "Midwest accent", I do recall thinking "How can I possibly have this accent when all the big-shot TV reporters speak exactly like me?"

As for accents in general, my firstborn had a fantastic ear for accents. However, being only one or two years old, when friends of mine from England or South Africa would speak to her in English, the "different" accent would throw her off to the point that she insisted on answering them in Hebrew.....


09/05/20 12:18 PM #4979    

 

Richard Murdock

When I first arrived in California after graduating, I discovered that I pronounced certain words differently than the California natives did.  Top among them was George WaRSHington.  And of course the waRSHing machine.  It took me some time but I managed to learn to speak the way the natives here did.  Other Cincinnati pronounciation differences -

Up on the ruuf (roof)

Go to the crik (creek)

Pull the weed out by the ruuts (roots)

And I too remember saying "please" to get someone to repeat a word that I missed.   Have not done or heard that in a very long time. 

I have fond memories of Frau Kitzmann.  It was only many years later when I was travelling in Germany and with much trepidation used some of my high school German and was complimented on my "correct" pronounciation of the words.  Apparently Frau Kitzman being from Hamburg, had excellent hoch Deutsch pronounciation.  

 


09/05/20 01:24 PM #4980    

 

Florence (Now Jean) Ager

My first educational trauma resulted from the dual meaning of "please" in Cincinnati. I was in 2nd grade at Miss Doherty's. Having been duly disciplined by parents and Miss Doherty's  (where I learned to curtsy the first day of school), I was never intentionally rude. I was also an observer of the difference between personal  encounters and business transactions. Thus, on that fateful fall morning when I decided to purchase 2 pencils at the school store I decided that it was sufficient to ask if I "may" have 2 pencils. As the headmistress quickly opened the door, I spoke my rehearsed request, "May I buy 2 pencils?" the headmistress responded, "Please?" Assuming that she was quite elderly and hard of hearing, I repeated my request. Again, Miss Jones said this time more forcibly, "Please! " Now convinced that this poor woman was frustrated by a major hearing loss, I spoke my request even more loudly. This led to my sitting in her office until my mother arrived to bring me home. I don't recall trying to explain myself as I was too upset and/or feared that I might be further misunderstood. Is it any wonder that this 2nd grade delinquent became a child psychologist? 

 

 

 


09/05/20 02:08 PM #4981    

 

Ira Goldberg

Well, y'all. Bless your hearts! I was about to say that recently I say neither please, what nor huh? Perhaps it's a matter of hearing less well or ignoring more often. I'm in disbelief that might mean aging is real. We were just 18! Please?


09/05/20 02:41 PM #4982    

 

Gail Weintraub (Stern)

Accents. You may know that I lived in Kentucky and commuted to WHHS throughout my Effie and E-flat years. It was during my 7th grade year that my English teacher (I sure wish that I could remember her name!) took it upon herself to eliminate my Southern twang. She met with me after school many times until she was satisfied that she had accomplished her mission. To this day, whenever I am asked where I am from, I reply by asking, "Where do you think?" Almost 100% of the time, the answer is "Philidelphia". I guess my English teacher was from Philly and I took on her accent! 


09/05/20 03:33 PM #4983    

 

Steven Levinson

"Uncle" Tom Trousdell, my 6th grade science teacher and Lotspeich School's head PE teacher, went on a rampage against "what?" and "huh?"  If you said "What?," he responded, "Watt?  Are you a light bulb?"  If you uttered "Huh?," his retort was, "A pig says 'huh'; kick him in the belly, and he says 'uh huh.'" I've never forgotten that, although I still commit the same sins of word choice.


09/05/20 07:56 PM #4984    

 

Paul Simons

Re: Philadelphia accent - I’ve been living in Philadelphia suburbs since about 1976 and working in various suburbs and also Center City. South Philly where the Italian Market is doesn’t sound the same as Kensington where the opioid overdoses are and to my memory neither sounds like Gail or anyone at WHHS. We all sound like Center City where the banks and law firms and telecom companies are like in most cities. Right.

Ira - Puh-leeze! All we have to do is get to a wormhole in the center of a galaxy and time goes backwards! It’s true, I saw it in a movie called “Interstellar”. Why wouldn’t it be true? Of COURSE we can all be 18 again!



 


09/05/20 11:58 PM #4985    

 

Philip Spiess

All:  In our minds -- if not in our hearts -- we know we are still 18; I realized years ago that my truly creative period was circa 15 to 20 years of age; everything after that has been repetitive and imitative, if you've noticed on The Forum (if you've been paying attention).

(Uh, Steve Levinson:  Have you ever kicked a pig in its belly?  It will not grunt "uh, huh"; it will bite you!  Have I ever kicked a pig either?  Uh, no; but if you kick me, the least I will say will be something stronger than just "Uh, huh!" -- and it won't be words that you'll find in the Bible, either!)

Gail:  I never knew (then) that you were from Kentucky:  you fit so well into our class, and, indeed, were one of the leaders of it.

For Dick Murdoch:  One of my favorite jokes [apropos of pronunciation]:  A guy goes into a bar with his dog, and the bartender says, "You can't bring a dog in here!"  The guy says, "But this is my talking dog, Ralph, my buddy!"  The bartender says, "Stop right there; I've heard way too many talking dog stories in my time."  The guy says, "But he really does talk!  Listen:  Well, Ralph, tell the bartender your name."  And the dog goes [you have to tell this orally with a really guttural bark]:  "Ralph!"  "Yeah, Ralph!" says the guy, and the bartender says, "I don't believe this; get the hell out!"  "No, wait!" says the guy; "Ralph can answer any question I ask him -- just watch!"  And he says to the dog, "Well, Ralph, old boy, how's life been treating you?"  And the dog goes "Rough!" (again said with a guttural bark).  "Rough, huh?" says the guy; as the bartender starts to respond angrily, the guy interrupts with, "Say, Ralph old boy, what do you call the covering over the top of a house?"  "Roof!" the dog goes (again loudly and gutturally), and the guy says, "Right", as the bartender says, "I can't stand this!  You and that dog get the hell out of here now!"  But the guy insists, "No, wait!  Not only can this dog talk, but he knows lots of sports statistics, too!"  And he asks, "Ralph, who was the greatest hitter the New York Yankees ever had?"  And the dog growls (yes, telling it, you must really growl), "Ruth!"  At this, the bartender, now in a fury, throws the guy and the dog out through the bar's swinging doors into the street.  And, as they're lying bleeding in the gutter, the dog turns to the man and says, "What's the matter?  Was it Gehrig?"

 


09/06/20 04:44 AM #4986    

 

Jerry Ochs

My grandfather did not like the word "Hey" and would say, "Hay is for horses!" whenever I uttered it.

I learned from my English friends that using "she" for a (usually older) woman instead of her name in her presence would evoke the phrase, "Who's she?  She's the cat's mother."  The first time I was scolded in that way I thought the speaker was daft.

Speaking of Midwesterisms, did your mother red the table after a meal?  Did she call a bell pepper a mango?


09/06/20 07:28 AM #4987    

 

Laura Reid (Pease)

Love this conversation about accents, especially Gail's teacher trying to get rid of her twang.  My southern accent had a big effect on my life.  First of all, my Mom and Dad were both from Kentucky, my Dad from Danville, and my Mom from Burkesville, in south central Kentucky.  They both had southern accents.  My Dad was a chemical engineer with P&G and we lived in 7 southern states from the time I was born until Dad was transferred to Cincinnati and I was enrolled in the second grade at Hyde Park Elementary.  On day 2, my elderly teacher called my Mom and said she couldn't understand a word I said because of my southern accent.  On day 5, the same teacher complained to the principal that I was left handed.  The principal told the teacher to deal with it; two weeks later I was in the third grade.

That, my classmates, is why I am a year younger than the rest of you.....my Mom told her friends that I skipped a grade because I was so smart; my Dad said I skipped a grade because I was a pain in the a__!


09/06/20 10:46 AM #4988    

 

Ann Shepard (Rueve)

ALL of the stories of "please" have made me chuckle!  I don't ever remember being told NOT to use it when I was growing up. I don't recall when I stopped, but it was probably sometime in tenth or eleventh grade, when I wanted to seem more sophisticated.  During that time, I started calling my parents by their first names and started smoking too! I'm curious about its replacement.  You have to make certain your inflection is correct to make the statement a question, or you may get a reply you hadn't expected.  For instance, "excuse me" or "pardon me" may get a response, "I didn't hear you burp!!"

Like Richard, it took a while longer to drop the "r" from Washington, but I am proud to say, I never was from Cincinnat-ah or Ohi-ah!

The reverse of Gail's story happened to me.  I spent three years in school in Tennessee at Knoxville College, a historically black college.  It was a tiny school of perhaps 1000 students.  There was a small Cincinnati contingent, but most of the students were from the south, primarily Tennessee and Georgia.  It took no time for me to refer to where I lived as Knox-vull TIN-essee.  (Ira, my husband was from Louisville.  He taught me how to correctly pronounce it, since I had always called it Lewy-ville.  I can almost say it now as one syllable, with the stress on the Lou-uh-vull.) To this day, my southern accent slips out, especially after the slightest infusion of alcohol.

 

 

 


09/06/20 10:58 AM #4989    

 

Judy Holtzer (Knopf)

Laura, I just LOVE your story!

Jerry, Of course it was a mango!!!

Dick, I was Cincinnati-born and -bred, my mom moved to Cincinnati from Hungary as a girl of about 10 and worked like all H to learn English to get out of the humiliation of being placed second grade, my father was born in New York but was brought up in the small-town of Springfield Ohio, and I remember my grandparents still having "foreign" accents. My point is that I never say or said "WaRSHington". Same for the rest of the words you used as examples. Methinks that my mother was very careful with pronunciations when I was little because of her "foreignness" when she was a child. It's all about fitting in, from the 1920s to the 1960s to 2020 when my grandchildren are caught up in the same mishugass (craziness).

Florence, What was the woman's PROBLEM??? I don't understand why you got into trouble.


09/06/20 11:58 AM #4990    

 

Philip Spiess

Ann:  You may be interested to know that in the very early days of Cincinnati (that is, somewhere between 1788 and 1800 or so), some distinguished early leaders of the city insisted that it should be pronounced (maybe even spelled) "Cincinnata" -- trading on the Latin feminine singular ending -- because cities were always considered feminine.  This, of course, flew in the face of how General Arthur St. Clair had named the city; he named it after the Revolutionary War officers' organization, the Society of the Cincinnati, which cast the ending of "Cincinnati" in Latin's masculine plural.  (It was obvious how to correctly pronounce "Ohio" if you knew the old riddle, "What's round at both ends and high in the middle?"). And I used to drive my Middle School students crazy with the question, "How do you pronounce the capital of Kentucky -- 'Lewisville' or 'Louieville'?"  (The answer, of course, is Frankfort.  You can do the same thing with New Orleans and the capital of Louisiana.)

Although I've seen "mango" sometimes applied to bell peppers in cookbooks, my family always called them "peppers."  But how many of you grew up in familes (like I did) who liberally laced their talk about food with German phrases, such as "Schmierkase," "Leberwurst," and "Sauerbraten"?


09/06/20 12:11 PM #4991    

 

Dale Gieringer

 Gail -  

    Honestly, even if you didn't open your mouth,  I'd take you for a Philadelphia lady just by your looks.   It's your well kempt long hair, earrings, and breezy sophisticated demeanor.  

    My mom taught me to speak properly and avoid Cincinnati barbarisms.  Having done so, I was astounded to be told by a Cincinnati friend that I spoke with a London accent.  Actually, the best I can do is Chicago.   

 

 

       


09/06/20 01:56 PM #4992    

Sally Fox (Korkin)

Phil - yesterday I checked out all my Clifton School class photos which I have saved.  I was in Miss Scarborough's class - I was sick the day the class photo was taken.  My mother wrote everyone's names in each row on the back of the photo and wrote at the top: Sally Fox (sick).  You were in my class in 1st, 2nd, and 5th grades.  So I was in your 1st grade class, and I know I never learned to say "please" from Miss Scarborough! I have never used it in that context. 


09/06/20 02:24 PM #4993    

 

Paul Simons




09/06/20 07:03 PM #4994    

 

Jerry Ochs

God bless America


09/07/20 07:17 AM #4995    

 

Laura Reid (Pease)

Judy, and I loved YOUR story also.  Very interesting how determined your Mother was to fit in, and how it affected your pronunciation.  We are certainly products of our families.  What about your Mother's parents; did they arrive from Hungary with your Mom (age 10) to flee from the war?


09/07/20 08:52 AM #4996    

Jon Singer

Judy's folks and my parents were friends. I don't recall any accents. Her dad was smarter than all getout and her mom cut a hard bargain.  When I was 18 or so she was unwilling to drop the offering price for their beater, a Dodge Dart.  I ended up with my maternal grandmother brother's Plymouth.  That ride had as much girl attracting power as Si's 57 Plymouth with the '56 replacement engine.  Maybe he can tell you how Katona and I as occupants never picked up one stray parochial school girl hanging out on Harrison Ave.

As to "please", while in the first of 4 decades that we lived on Mitchell Ave, wife Ruth had our second child at the St. Bernard pool on opening day.  A photographer secured permission and The Enquirer posted a picture of our toddler crying in his mother's arms. I still have a copy somewhere. The story identified this quite attractive lady (my perspective).  That night some gentleman from the dark side of life without obligation and honor called.  He offered to use his tongue in an unusual way on her anatomy.  Ruth wasn't quite sure she understood his intent and politely said "please." Seemingly confused by her acceptance, she told me he promptly hung up. 


09/07/20 10:50 AM #4997    

 

Judy Holtzer (Knopf)

Laura, We could have a long and interesting conversation about "fitting in", but for now, I'll just answer your question about when my mother's family came to America. It was about 1921-22, since Mom was 9 or 10. My grandfather was a POW from WWI, and my poor grandmother had an uncertain and terrible wait until his safe return. My mother told me that once they were in American and children in school learning English, my grandmother insisted on only English being spoken. Growing up, the only Hungarian I heard was when a letter was read aloud or the few simple nursery rhymes I was taught.

Jon, It was interesting to hear your impression about my parents. How did you discover that my Dad was very smart? My Mom, whom I would rather label stubborn as all h--l, probably learned to drive a hard bargain through the Pioneer Women rummage sales.... Sometimes they received really really nice things to sell, but because it was a "rummage" sale, women wanted to get a BARGAIN. Mom would make sure that the beloved Pioneer Women got what they deserved from those sales. Where was I when this car sale was being negotiated? I don't remember her selling a car, so maybe I was in Israel? Jon is correct. Our parents were friends. His Dad was a wonderful carpenter, and when my parents needed new living room furniture, he made a sofa and 2 chairs that were so strong and so confortable that my children as teenagers would fall asleep on them! I loved talking with both of Jon's parents. The Singer house was a warm and fascinating place for parochial ole me. I was Jon's little sister's youth group leader, and I dated his older brother a couple of times. But Jon and I never spoke or had any connection until much, much later. Kind of weird, considering.....


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