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09/28/20 06:31 PM #5073    

 

Jerry Ochs

Stephen,

I would need an enormous hook to bait you with whale meat.  We eat whale in Japan too.  From the viewpoint of reducing the load on the planet, catching an animal that feeds itself and swims around in the sea, excreting its waste here and there, has an insignificant impact on the environment.  Contrast that with dedicating hectares of land for growing crops to feed beef cattle, more land to keep said cattle contained, and the pollution of the soil and water by the voluminous excretions of hundreds of animals kept in one place. 

However, if we really want to save the planet, we should eat the rich. devil


09/28/20 08:59 PM #5074    

 

Philip Spiess

Jerry:  My doctor told me I should stay away from a rich diet.


09/29/20 08:49 PM #5075    

 

Bruce Fette

I would like to come back to Paul's posting. The photo made me instantly hungry, even 1 hour after dinner. And the cuisine shown is not available by the sack locally.  So Paul, grab a couple of sacks and drive over here with them. Thanks,  :)

And PS to Phil,

I have never been to Massanutin, but have driven past Harrisonburg many times. The photos make it look nice. Perhaps worthy of a visit.  :)

 


09/29/20 10:52 PM #5076    

 

Paul Simons

Thanks Bruce. There’s a lot of background noise right now - a discussion or debate program on TV apparently interrupted by an escaped mental patient - so it’s a pleasure to be able to address White Castle hamburgers. I’ve looked into the way they’re made and cooked. Those 5 holes in the meat patties allow heat from the grill, flavored by that meat patty and a layer of onions - rehydrated dried onions - to rise into the buns, which are the top layer. So the burger is an exceptionally unified item. Because the whole thing is standardized we know exactly what we want and we get exactly what we want. That’s a good thing in my opinion - to know what we want and get what we want. Does this apply to more than hamburgers? Only time will tell.


09/29/20 11:38 PM #5077    

 

Jerry Ochs

True confessions time.  When I was a wee lad, maybe 3 or 4, I refused to eat anything but White Castle hamburgers.  The family doctor said they contain all the nutrition a growing boy with a discerning pallet needs.  Fortunately, there was a White Castle restaurant about two blocks from our house, next to a potato chip factory.  When the breeze blew from a certain direction, the entire neighborhood was outside, drooling like zombies in a cheap horror movie. 


09/30/20 12:20 AM #5078    

 

Gail Weintraub (Stern)

Okay. True confessions. I have never eatten a White Castle hamburger. I know that Paul will find that inconceivable. 


09/30/20 12:55 AM #5079    

 

Philip Spiess

Gail:  What?  Do try them!  (Let's review:  Cincinnati's best incredible food:  Skyline Chili; Graeter's Ice Cream; White Castle Hamburgers.) Although White Castle hamburgers are not native to Cincinnati -- see my discussion of White Castle hamburgers earlier on this site -- they are a part of Cincinnati's cuisine legacy.  


09/30/20 07:10 AM #5080    

 

Paul Simons

First of all Gail I have to respectfully disagree - what an arcane concept, in light of current conditions - but anyway I can imagine there was no White Castle within easy walking distance of your home or grade school, and that you were never driving home from listening to Lonnie Mack at Hawaiian Gardens out in Western Hills and nothing else was open except Camp Washington Chili and you had already been there for dinner. So you have missed out on something rather important but easily addressed. The frozen ones aren’tt totally execrable, insulting, boorish, or nauseating. But there’s nothing like being in a White Castle restaurant at 3:00 AM, or at 12:30 PM - time ceases to matter within the white tile walls of God’s Own Hamburger Joint - and hearing the banter of your fellow congregants and smelling the rectangular onions and rectangular meat patties  covered by rectangular buns cooking away on a rectangular grill on their way to becoming part of the President - no, make that the King - of all rectangular sandwiches invented decades before the goddam Ciabatta roll ever invaded and conquered our former nation. Eons before what you probably had for lunch, an avocado and grilled portobello mushroom on yes a Ciabatta roll. 

Jerry - it sounds like your doctor was a podiatrist and knew nothing about nutrition so if he looked good on TV he was born too soon. He could have had his own cable channel and dispensed his theories on matters he knew nothing about to the very creme de la creme of Society. Speaking of creme de la creme don’t forget those White Castle coffee cups!!


09/30/20 01:16 PM #5081    

 

David Buchholz

In preparation for mandatory fire evacuations we're reminded to pack "Go Bags", one, if we have enough time to drive away, the other, if we have to leave on foot.  I coudn't imagine losing formal dinnerware, so I packed two of these in each bag.


09/30/20 06:42 PM #5082    

 

Philip Spiess

I realize why they now call the Corona virus COVID-19.  The Smith-Corona is a different type.


09/30/20 06:50 PM #5083    

 

Jerry Ochs

Another confession.  When my wife and I traveled to Oberlin Ohio to attend our younger son's graduation ceremony, we three ate lunch at a Skyline Chili restaurant, then stopped by a White Castle to buy a few hamburgers to take back to the motel.  However, as soon as we got into the car, we began "just taking a taste"  and finished them off right there in the parking lot.  I had a friend who used to say, "I don't want to overstuff myself" but there are times when you have no choice.


09/30/20 07:07 PM #5084    

 

Bruce Fette

Another day, and now someone else making me hungry yet again.

So first of all, let me say, I bought a White Castle mug in Ft. monmouth NJ about 12 years ago. The dish washer has removed nearly all of the W.C symbol on it. Oh but now they have a new mug size and symbol. Guess I will have to drive to NJ again.

 

And now I can get a dish for Skyline Cincinnati Chili. I guess I will have to drive to Columbus (the nearest spot to here) now to get one of those.  :)

 

You lucky people that live there. You dont have to drive 9 hours when you have a craving!   :)

 

 

 

 

 


09/30/20 08:28 PM #5085    

 

Jerry Ochs

Why I love the Internet.

The company also began publishing its own internal employee magazine, the White Castle Official House Organ, circa November 1925 (it was originally named The Hot Hamburger). The bulk of the material was contributed by company personnel and consisted mostly of letters and photographs of workers, promotional announcements, 25-year milestones, retirements, and similar items of interest arranged by geographic area. "Employees could... read about the progress and innovations made by those in other areas which made everyone aware of the entire system's direction and condition."  The White Castle Official House Organ was published quarterly at least through the early 1980s, and at some point was renamed The Slider Times. The Ohio Historical Society houses an extensive archive of White Castle System, Inc. records from 1921–1991, including issues dating from 1927 to 1970 of the White Castle Official House Organ.


10/01/20 12:04 AM #5086    

 

Philip Spiess

Bruce!  Where you been, darlin'?  You and I are both here in the heart of northern Virginia, and the Giant groceries carry frozen White Castle hamburgers in their frozen snack sections, while Wegman's carries Skyline Chili in cans.

I know that neither is quite the same as getting it fresh at the source, but beggars can't be choosers!  Just sayin'.


10/01/20 07:24 AM #5087    

 

Paul Simons

White Castles restaurants exist in Tennessee.

Just enter zipcode 37211 and you're in.

https://www.whitecastle.com/locations

And - probably depending on if the governor allows measures to curtail the spread of Covid-19 in the state - one is planned for Florida.

https://www.wptv.com/news/state/white-castle-announces-plan-to-open-first-florida-location-in-orlando

Looking around for more. But there's a new kid on the block in Cincinnati - Barbeque.

Jim Dandy's Family Barbeque (Only 1 location, not sure if it's open).

http://www.jimdandybbq.com/

And City Barbeque - 3 locations - open.

https://www.citybbq.com/

We have options, although most likely these are drive-through until the vaccine is here.


10/01/20 09:31 AM #5088    

 

David Buchholz

Bruce, I bought the plates thirty-six years ago at an Oxford, Skyline.  Alas! It opened after we had lived there for three years and moved back to Skyline-deficient California.  The restaurants in Oxford were so bad in the early seventies that we would play "Restaurant Roulette", writing the names of the restaurants on little pieces of paper, then throwing them in a hat, mixing them up, then choosing one.  We just wanted to go out once in a while, even if there was no place we actually liked. And then along came Skyline.


10/01/20 10:26 AM #5089    

 

Ann Shepard (Rueve)

I realize I'm fortunate to live in Glendale. Frisch's, Skyline, White Castle, City BBQ, and Jim Dandy's are all within minutes from my front door. However, the pandemic has been very hard on eateries around here without drive-through windows. Even though we are considered a RED state, our governor DeWine protected Ohioans by having an extraordinary Public Health Director, Dr. Amy Acton, whose health advice he followed heavily.  He shut the state down early. During reopened phases, restaurants were among the last to open with restrictions that still are in place to number of diners and spacing. I'm not sure if City BBQ is open, but Jim Dandy's is still closed. I have cooked most of my meals at home and have not dined inside of a restaurant since March 10 (I was at a microbrewery that hosted a charity event for Angel's Paws), but I've picked up from the big three (Frisch's, White Castle, and Skyline) occasionally throughout isolation.  

Dr. Acton, bless her heart, resigned in the early summer due to protests against her orders. Some of the protests by armed Ohioans, were terrible.  They went to her home in the Columbus suburb of Bexley. Some carried anti semitic signs and were threatening.  Bless Mike DeWine's heart too. He has stood his ground and relies on the medical and epidemiology experts to continue to protect us, yet he didn't make a mandatory face covering order until late. For his efforts, laws suits are flying about his orders and some wingnuts in the state legislature in his own party are trying impeach him. 


10/01/20 07:51 PM #5090    

 

Philip Spiess

Hiked a mountain today in the Blue Ridge Mountains of Virginia.  Why, at my age, you may ask?  So do I.


10/01/20 08:16 PM #5091    

 

Jerry Ochs

Ann,

Here in Japan we all started wearing masks in the middle of February.  My wife and I took a short trip to Taiwan at the end of February and everybody on the airplane and everybody in Taiwan (except Western tourists) wore a mask.  There were no mandates that I recall.  We did it because it makes sense. 


10/01/20 11:04 PM #5092    

 

Bruce Fette

Well Phil,

The frozen WCs, are just not the same as hot off the grill. The Chili is OK. BUT, we havent been in a grocery store for 6 months, so I cant get either.

Hiking the mountain sounds wonderful. In Az, hiking the mountains in Flagstaff or Durango, were my summer get away. I found hiking mountains were prefered. Its all downhill after you are tired. In contrast, hiking the canyon in az means its all uphill when you are most tired.

So bring home a trail map!


10/01/20 11:56 PM #5093    

 

Philip Spiess

Bruce:  I agree:  it ain't the same -- they don't have the essential onions and pickles (but it's what you can get).  And with the Skyline Chili, you have to add whatever you want:  the pasta, the onions, the shredded cheese -- whatever (I'm a Coney Island man, myself).

As to hiking, I've apparently become old, despite my Boy Scout leadership years.  It was all I could do to get back down the trail.  Fortunately, at the end of the trail there was a Screwdriver --  Orange Juice to refortify my bodily juices, and Vodka to refortify my spirits!

Jerry:  I believe masks have been an essential part of Japanese drama.  I'm awaiting to see what role masks play in this year's Hallowe'en pageant.


10/02/20 12:19 AM #5094    

 

Philip Spiess

Another down-river historical episode:

THORNTON TRIANGLE AND ENVIRONS

Fernbank Dam:  In the early days of my childhood in Cincinnati, my grandfather would occasionally take my sister and me down river to the community of Fernbank on the western side of Cincinnati, there to watch the great Ohio River barges and their towboats being put through the boat locks at Ohio River Dam No. 37, better known locally as Fernbank Dam (this is where we first learned how a lock works).  The dam served a very useful purpose, for in my collection of 19th-century photographs of Ohio River steamboats, certain pictures of the river in summer show boats stranded on sandbars due to low water in the hot season (there were times you could even walk across the river to Kentucky), while pictures of the river in winter show boats trapped in solid ice or even crushed by ice floes in the cold season.  The dam was installed as part of a river-long system to raise the water level of the Ohio River between Pittsburgh and Cairo, Illinois, to a 9-foot navigation stage to prevent such occurrences.

It was 1824 when Congress first appropriated money for river and harbor work, and thereafter some rather crude early engineering efforts were inflicted on some of the Ohio River sandbars.  It was not until about 1871, however, when the U. S. Army Corps of Engineers moved its Ohio River Improvement Team to Cincinnati, that some serious dredging began in the river, along with the construction of some breakwaters.  (Concrete pylons, used as ice breakers to break up the ice floes, were also constructed a little later, usually where the current pulls in toward the shore; three of these can be seen in the river near the Kentucky side a short way below the old Coney Island river landing.)  But in 1895, under the aegis of the Ohio Valley Improvement Association, planning began for the construction of a series of dams in the river, including a major dam below Cincinnati at Fernbank; however, this dam was not begun until 1905, and it was not until 1910 that Congress passed legislation authorizing complete canalization of the Ohio River.

Completed in 1911 as the major dam in the system dedicated in 1929 [see below], and being at the time the largest movable dam in the world, Dam No. 37 consisted of a lock, 600 feet long and 110 feet wide, along the Ohio side of the river, a series of hinged wickets (known as a “Chanoine” dam), three “bear traps,” and an abutment off the Kentucky shore; its cost was $1,297,924.  A “Chanoine” dam consists of a weir-like structure composed of movable wickets, supported on the downstream face by a hinged steel bracket; these may be laid flat on a concrete base during flood stages, thus leaving the river open; they may be raised again when the water drops (they were raised and lowered at Fernbank by an iron hook operated by an attendant in a maneuver boat moving along the dam).  When the wickets are up, boats pass through the locks; when the wickets are down, boats pass directly over the dam itself.  “Bear traps” were constructions by which the river pool could be quickly relieved of surplus water, driftwood, or ice.

The Ohio River Navigation Monument:  Most of the dams built on the Ohio River between 1905 and 1937 were of the “Chanoine” type; the others were either concrete gravity dams (some with movable gates at the crest) or roller dams.  To celebrate the completion of this 980-mile long navigation system, consisting of forty-six locks and movable dams along the river between Pittsburgh and Cairo, Illinois, the Ohio River Navigation Monument, often called the “Canalization Monument,” was dedicated by President Herbert Hoover in 1929; its 30-foot high granite obelisk stands in Eden Park on the Ohio River Overlook just south of the Eden Park Water Tower, with sweeping views both up and down the river and of the Kentucky hills.

At the end of the 1950s, this older system of Ohio River dams began to be replaced by a new system of higher dams in order to raise the average water level of the river from 9 feet to a 25-foot depth for new navigational needs, specifically to accommodate the bigger towboats being used to move the barges.  (Yes, folks, that’s why we started having more and bigger spring floods:  the water in the river was now much higher to begin with.)  Fernbank Dam was removed in 1963, though its grounds, just above River Park and including the dam’s office building, powerhouse, warehouse, four lock tenders’ homes, and a garage, were still controlled for some years by the U. S. Army Corps of Engineers for barge repair under the name of the U. S. Engineering Depot and Marine Ways; one lock tender’s house remains in what is now Fernbank Park [see below].  Meldahl Dam, above Cincinnati between Augusta, Kentucky, and New Richmond, Ohio, and Markland Dam, below Cincinnati between Warsaw, Kentucky, and Vevay, Indiana, are now the two ends of the so-called “Cincinnati Pool.”  Today the Ohio River navigation system carries the largest amount of commercial traffic of any river in the United States.

Cincinnati’s Smallest Park:  But my sister and I often came down to this part of Cincinnati not just to see the dam, but also to see the Indian.  Located at the corner of Thornton Avenue and Gracely Drive in Sayler Park (formerly Fernbank, down river from downtown Cincinnati), at approximately 60 feet in length Thornton Triangle is Cincinnati’s smallest park.  It is there for the sole purpose of being home to the J. Fitzhugh Thornton Memorial.  And who is J. Fitzhugh Thornton, you might ask?  Thornton was a prominent and well-liked farmer in the Sayler Park area at the turn of the century (he was familiarly called “General”); his wife, Eliza M. Thornton, erected said monument to his memory in 1912.  The Memorial consists of a zinc statue mounted on a cast-iron pedestal base, the pedestal itself featuring, on its four sides, plaques of grotesque antique masks; small fountain basins for the watering of horses are on its eastern and western sides (though the water is usually no longer running).  Atop the pedestal is the figure of an Indian.

The Fernbank Indian:  The Fernbank Indian statue, although it is the only Indian sculpture in Cincinnati, is, regrettably, not unique to Cincinnati.  The statue (purportedly representing an eastern Woodlands Native American but looking more like a cigar-store native) and its pedestal were purchased out of the ornamental sculpture catalogue of the J. L. Mott Iron Works of Trenton, New Jersey (formerly of the Bronx, New York).  Jordan Lawrence Mott had invented the first cooking-stove to utilize anthracite coal as fuel (all previous stoves had used wood), and his convenient and beautiful stoves caused his iron company to grow rapidly, eventually gaining a national reputation.  It was soon producing not only stoves, but also tubs, sinks, and other bathroom fixtures [my 1976 slide lecture, “Nights of the Bath,” on the history of the American bathroom, given originally at the Cincinnati Historical Society, features a number of Mott company items]; drains, manhole covers, and iron coal-chutes; ironwork fences and gates; and garden statues and benches, fountains, and the like.  Marion E. Gridley’s 1966 book, America’s Indian Statues, notes (page 89) that surviving identical Mott Iron Works Indian statues, in addition to the one in Cincinnati (identified locally as “Tecumseh” [see “Along the Great Miami River:  Parts I and II” on this Forum]), are located in Barberton, Ohio (where it’s known as “Chief Hopocan” or “Captain Pipe”), in Akron and Lodi, Ohio, at Ishpeming, Michigan (known there as “Chief Ish”), in Calhoun, Georgia (known there as “Sequoyah”), and at the Old Fort, Schenectady, New York; there is possibly one other still extant, although one once located in Cuzco, Peru, was pulled down by the natives, purportedly drunk (on Pisco Sours?), possibly in protest of a North American Indian being depicted instead of a South American one.

But the “Fernbank Indian” (also known as the “Sayler Park Indian”), looking eastward “as if he scented danger approaching from the woods of Muddy Creek” behind him (thus the WPA’s Cincinnati Guide, 1943), has a notoriety extending well beyond any uniqueness, local identity, or pleasing (or not) sculptural aesthetic – it has been the victim of numerous accidents, what one might call “statuary rape.”  And first, it was partially submerged in the great Ohio River Flood of 1937 (the highest in the river’s recorded history, which, according to my mother, cancelled mid-term exams at Walnut Hills High School).

Then, in 1940, occurred the most famous accident to the statue:  a high-speed automobile knocked the statue off its pedestal and partly shattered it.  Unconcerned or uncaring, city officials let it lay there in pieces; Fernbank natives, however, demanded that it be repaired and restored to its pedestal.  But it was wartime, and the park commissioners sold the broken remains for $10 to a Mrs. Harry F. Doctor, an Aurora, Indiana, antiques dealer, whose husband repaired the statue and made it a new arrow.  Nevertheless, the citizens of Fernbank continued to clamor for the statue’s return, enlisting the support of former Fernbank native James B. Hendryx, a lineal descendant of John Cleves Symmes [see “Along the Great Miami River:  Part II” on this Forum], a relative of Mrs. Thornton as well, and a writer of boys’ “Westerns” (featuring Indians) in the “Connie Morgan” series on top of that.  He responded, in part: “Inasmuch as the Indian has become a victim of the machine age, . . . [i]f the pedestal . . . stands intact, why not mount a motor car on it?”  Despite the fact that Mrs. Doctor now demanded $300 for “Chief-Come-Back,” as she dubbed the statue, the Park Board finally secured the return of Fernbank’s Indian, and it was restored and remounted in its rightful place in 1941.

But wait! there’s more!  Another driver, on New Year’s Eve, 1965, who had undoubtedly been “hitting the sauce,” also hit the Indian, which had to be restored again.  Then the terrible tornado of 1974 hit Sayler Park with devastating results – but the statue survived.  Then the statue required restoring in both 1987 and 2000 (apparently it was hit at least one more time).  Therefore Sayler Park has consistently raised the money for such restorations, and it has now established a $10,000 endowment fund to cover any immediate repairs, as well as long-term maintenance.  (As of the end of June, 2017, it was reported that it had been 18,807 days since the Fernbank Indian had been hit by a car.)

Parks of Sayler Park:  In the city of Sayler Park proper, in addition to Thornton Triangle, there are five other parks.  One, important in this discussion, is Fernbank Park [see above], now a regional park made up of a merger of the former Lee, River, and Fern Bank Parks.  Fernbank Park contains two park shelter-houses, one of which, the Riverview Shelter, designed in the 1940s (as so many of the Cincinnati Park system’s shelter houses then were) by R. Carl Freund in a Frank Lloyd Wright-type Naturalistic style; so was the park’s concession stand.  The park also contains Fernbank Lodge (the remaining Fernbank Dam’s lock tender’s house, now available for rentals), and the 1-mile long Sycamore Nature Trail, on which one can usually spot black vultures.  The land on which Fernbank Park now stands once belonged to John Cleves Symmes [see “Along the Great Miami River:  Part II” on the Forum]; it later was the site of an experimental stock breeding farm and a racetrack.  Where the railway now is (paralleling U. S. Route 50) was once the bed of the Whitewater Canal [see “Along the Great Miami River:  Part II”]; in the 1850s, this part of the canal was abandoned and converted to railroad right-of-way.

Other local parks include the Nelson Sayler Memorial Park (otherwise known as “The Square”), named after an early settler who was an early strong supporter of his community; the park serves as the center of community life in Sayler Park proper – the Sayler Park Farmers Market, Oktoberfest, and the Sayler Park Harvest Festival are all held here; and Stuart Park, created in 1912 but moved to its present location from its old location on the site of the old Fernbank train station, features a playground for children.  McQueety Park and Chestnut Ridge Park are island parks in the middle of streets, the former in the middle of Twain Avenue, and the latter in the middle of Fernbank Avenue; both are lined with Sayler Park’s historic 19th-century Victorian houses (some in “Steamboat Gothic” style); all are well worth viewing.

 

 


10/02/20 02:51 AM #5095    

 

Dale Gieringer

Harvest Moon in California Oct 1st

A full moon and a night for madness here in the Oakland Hillls.  We're being smothered by a pall of smoke from  our dear distant friends in Sonoma & Napa.  Air quality outside a dangerous 169 ppm, inside our air filter struggles to keep it to a merely unhealthy 90.       And we haven't even gotten to Halloween yet - it will be  the first Halloween blue moon in our lifetime.   Hold tight!  

"And you tell me, over and over my friends, you don't believe we're on the eve of destruction?".

 

 

 


10/02/20 01:00 PM #5096    

David R. Schneider

In Ft. Myers, we are fortunate enough to have a Skyline restaurant, and we can also find frozen Skyline. This past,winter,Graeter's food trucks were in Ft. Myers and Naples, so I can only hope they return next winter. The only WC we have is frozen, and I still have not tried one.


10/02/20 01:48 PM #5097    

 

Florence (Now Jean) Ager

WHITE CASTLES
Of the 400 plus White Castles there are 7 in New Jersey with others surrounding New York City. They feature fried clams which can be either well-cooked and delicious or rubbery. Both varieties can pass muster when soaked in a gourmet-worthy tartar sauce. 

ON  CLIMBING THE BLUE RIDGE
Phil, I hope you will share some photos of the Blue Ridge. A lasting memory of my autumns In Charlottesville is of yellow leaves against the blue peaks. More memorable, though, was x-country skiing on Skyline Drive. When there were heavy snows the highway was closed to vehicles. There was just enough plowed to create a smooth wide track. The unfolding panoramas captured at "ski speed" were more engaging than my Nordic Trak videos. 


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