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04/16/19 11:36 PM #3944    

 

Philip Spiess

Ira:  Is Dee Felice still alive -- and performing?


04/17/19 06:26 AM #3945    

 

Ira Goldberg

Phil - not for a while. His wife and daughter run the restaurant. Did I actually have knowledge about something you didn’t? 


04/17/19 09:17 AM #3946    

 

Stephen (Steve) Dixon

Steve's Musical Memories:

I remember the guys gathered at Jerry Blake’s house, trying to be a singing group, practicing “Angel Eyes” and “What’s Your Name” by Skip & Flip.

"I’ve stood on this corner,
Waiting for you to come along
So my heart could feel satisfied,
So please let me be
Your number one,
Under the moon, under the stars
And under the Su-u-un..."

And that triggers other musical memories:

A big old October full moon, on a clear night leading to a bunch of us singing “Stagger Lee” outside Pam Hall’s house in Mt. Washington. Remember...

"The night was clear,
The moon was yellow,
And the leaves came tumbling DOWN…."

Sock hops in the gym at Mt. Washington Elementary and dancing to great stuff like “Bristol Stomp.”

Dale Siemer pantomiming “Purple People Eater” in a classroom talent show (and I use the word talent loosely).

Big debates over the actual words to Del Shannon’s “Runaway.” The controversial line was, in fact, “Tears are fallin’, and I feel the pain.”

Cincinnati’s own Carl Dobkins, Jr. having a hit with “My Heart Is an Open Book” (1959) and me hating that Connie Oldashi liked him so much.

Late Fall of 1962 when, suddenly, everybody was walking around singing “Duke, Duke, Duke, Duke of Earl…Duke, Duke…”

What the heck WERE the words to Louie Louie? And whoever imagined this song would not only be a 70’s remake hit but the music to a TV commercial?

Actually dancing in the street to Martha and The Vandella’s “Dancin’ in the Street.”

In the library at Sue Hines’ (Susan Hines Siemer) house with two copies of Johnny’s Greatest Hits stacked back-to-back on the stereo so both sides would play all the way through before you had to stop slow dancing together.

Wishing I could sing like the lead of The Platters, then like Johnny Maestro of The Crests on “16 Candles” and, ultimately, like the lead of The Marcels on “Blue Moon.”

Anita Darian, the greatest voice in Rock ‘n Roll, singing descant on The Tokens version of 'The Lion Sleeps Tonight.'


04/17/19 12:48 PM #3947    

 

Barbara Kahn (Tepper)

Paul, as a fellow fan of White Castle burgers, I'm happy to report the restaurants are easily accessible here on Long Island.  

My sister and I bemoan the loss of Pasquale's. This was the first pizza we ever tasted.  We also liked the steak sandwiches but they had to be plain for us. 


04/17/19 05:29 PM #3948    

 

Paul Simons

First about White Castles and Pasquales Barbara - you made my day! You can get a lobster tail and a filet mignon anywhere. That stuff is so easy to come by it's like fast food. But White Castles and that Pasquales tomato sauce and provolone ...magnifique!

Then - speaking of musical memories -


04/18/19 03:37 PM #3949    

 

Barbara Kahn (Tepper)

Paul, I had never tasted pizza before it was served at a friend's party.  Being afraid of new foods, I only ate the crust. Next time I had it I tasted the actual pizza and loved it. That taste of Pasquale's food has amplified with time and loss but no other pizza has that same taste. The steak sandwiches were good too.  Luckily White Castle hamburgers have only changed in price.  The nearest one was totally renovated but the taste remains the same.  Once in a while there are even copons.

 


04/19/19 11:26 PM #3950    

 

Philip Spiess

Ira:  No doubt you did, though my inquiry was based on the fact that I had neither seen nor heard Dee Felice in ages, so I assumed he was dead; after all, wasn't he of my father's generation?

Stephen Dixon:  Your encapsulation of the music of the moment is spellbinding, even if I (and maybe Nelson Abanto) was listening to grand opera during the same period.  (But yes, I remember many of the songs you mention, though a number were covers for earlier renditions, and I'll try to get the words for "Louie, Louie," named after Louisville, I'm sure, for you.)


04/21/19 09:45 PM #3951    

 

Paul Simons

This is for Barbara but also for all - a bit of nostalgia - from my last visit to Cincinnati -

 


04/21/19 10:47 PM #3952    

 

Stephanie Riger

I had a terrific nostalgia trip to Cincinnati..  I haven't been there in decades and I was delighted to see that Walnut HIlls High School is thriving.  The school looks great, with several additions, and I fondly went by the room where I took art classes from Mrs Dobbins - my favorite class and my favorite teacher.   There were many students hanging around on Friday afternoon and they looked quite happy and content to be there.  

I would add a picture if I could figure out how to do that here...

We also had several great meals, thanks for all the tips from people on this site.

Warm regards to all,

Stephanie

 

 


04/21/19 11:10 PM #3953    

 

Gail Weintraub (Stern)

Stephanie, where did you end up eating? Did you also indulge at Graeter's? Glad you had such a memorable trip to our Queen City.


04/22/19 04:45 AM #3954    

 

Paul Simons

Stephanie et al - to add an image first you click on the icon that I put the red box around. This opens a window that allows you to "Browse" to the image you want to display. Then you hit the "Upload" command button and it's done

 

 


04/22/19 07:16 AM #3955    

 

Barbara Kahn (Tepper)

Oh boy, what a beautiful sight Paul!  After all the cooking I've been doing for holidays that sure looks like a great idea when we can get over to White Castle! 

They put ketchup on them in NY.  Do they do that in Ohio now?  We have to request no ketchup. Except for that, they are the same and delicious. 


04/22/19 08:48 AM #3956    

 

Paul Simons

Barbara - you can put ketchup or other items on them. Me, I took those 6 burgers, made them into 3 double burgers, tossed out the extra buns, and I'm looking forward to the next trip to Cincinnati for more. Evidently haute cuisine just isn't for me - at least not all the time. Haute anything is not for me - at least not all the time.


04/22/19 12:43 PM #3957    

 

Stephanie Riger

Gail, lots of the recommended restaurants were booked, but we had great meals at Metropole, Jean Robert, and Mita (tapas).  No need for Graeter's as they now have a shop in Winnetka, about 15 minutes from my house in Evanston (IL).  It's right next to my dentist's office, so I give myself a treat there after seeing the dentist.  Very handy.


04/22/19 01:51 PM #3958    

 

Barbara Kahn (Tepper)

Stephanie, I thought Mrs. Dobbins was wonderful too. She was my homeroom teacher at least one year, maybe more?  My mother was very fond of her too and they had a nice friendship. 

Paul, I don't eat ketchup but know that many people do. The strange thing is that it's automatically added to the White Castle hamburgers here unless you request none. It's odd and alters the original burger. I have no idea why they started doing it but it's not new. 

I do like the drink machines at Wendy's they have that give many options. They may still have Dave's red cream soda which is really like the old Barq's red pop. It was at Wendy's last week but the machines are often broken or out of flavors so I couldn't tell if it was still available or not.  

Haute cuisine is not for me. I like to order for myself and not wait for service. I don't like dressing up either.  A lifetime of political functions has made me prefer casual and easy, no frills. It's ok with me if I cook at home a little bit too. 


04/22/19 05:29 PM #3959    

 

Paul Simons

This is to try to clarify adding images in reply to Stephanie. The "Message Center" doesn't support images so I'm putting it here. 

This is the window that comes up when you click the Image icon - IN GOOGLE CHROME:

 


The first step is to click the "Choose File" button. This lets you navigate to the folder where your image file is. Next you click on that file, click "Open", then you can click "Upload".

It's different in IE and Firefox. There, the "Choose File" button is labeled "Browse". This is ONLY in Google Chrome.


04/24/19 02:01 AM #3960    

 

Philip Spiess

Paul:  Dear god!  Your photo makes my mouth water!  The frozen White Castles from our local grocery here in northern Virginia when microwaved just don't come out the same as the fresh ones -- which my father and mother and I used to have as late night (call it midnight) snacks when I was at WHHS, and on into college.  It was surely the fried onions and the pickles.


04/24/19 05:47 AM #3961    

 

Paul Simons

Phil do you remember the way the burgers, buns, and onions were arranged at White Castle restaurants? I'm told that the reason for the 5 holes in each burger was to allow the vapors released during cooking to permeate the onions and then the buns which were arrayed in an offset grid atop the meat patties which were square and frozen so they could be placed right next to one another on the grill, making he whole thing a checkerboard of culinary ecstasy.

So the hot vapors both cook the onions and pick up their flavor, transporting it into the buns while also heating them. The whole thing has been allowed to exist without impediment for decades. I sincerely hope it stays that way. If it were to be challenged, and it went to today's highest court, we'd have to say goodbye to the joy of our lives, the foundation of our faith in all that is right and good, our White Castle hamburgers!

04/24/19 10:45 PM #3962    

 

Philip Spiess

Okay, Paul, here's the deal:  yes, as you wrote it -- accurately -- it brought to mind many mid-day and/or nighttime visits to the White Castle in Camp Washington (the one closest to Clifton) and the gurgling digestive juices as we watched our order being cooked, with that inevitable ground beef-and-onion smell in the air.

But (as you might guess) I'm going to add a few details; these are drawn from a book in my library entitled Selling 'em by the Sack:  White Castle and the Creation of American Food (1997), by David Gerard Hogan, an associate professor of American History at Heidelberg College in Ohio.  (I wrote about some aspects of White Castle history on this Forum several years ago, notably that the White Castle in Cincinnati was the originator of "half & half," due to a shortage of cream for the coffee during the World War II years; sugar, coffee, Coca-Cola, ONIONS!, and other important food products were also often in short supply or non-existent at White Castle during the war years.)

But now as to "the five-hole patty":  Professor Hogan writes (page 117) that labor and meat prices kept creeping upward in the years following World War II, and White Castle had to find a way to cut costs.  "In 1951, the home office leadership [Columbus, Ohio] decided to take the unprecedented step of trimming the size of its hamburger patty from one to eight-tenths of an ounce, effectively getting two additional patties from each pound of ground beef.  To achieve this reduction in size, White Castle made its square patty thinner and bored its distinctive five holes into the meat."

"Originally proposed on an anonymous employee suggestion sheet in 1947 by Cincinnati operator Earl Howell, this five-hole concept was slow to catch the attention or interest of company officials.  But when White Castle finally 'downsized' its patty in 1951, it publicly touted the inclusion of the holes as a way to make the meat cook faster, in less than a minute, while also allowing more steam and juices into the bun on top."

But Wait!  There's More!  Next to the White Castle history in my library, I found, to my astonishment (horror?), a 10-panel pamphlet entitled "Cooking 'em by the Sack:  Twelve Recipes for Cooking with White Castle Hamburgers" (1994)!  Apparently, White Castle had held a nationwide contest challenging people to submit recipes that used at least ten White Castle hamburgers as the main ingredient.  The Grand Prize Winner was "Broccoli 'Castlerole'."  (I'll spare you the details, but Ritz crackers and Velveeta cheese were among the ingredients, so you get the idea.)  Other recipes included "Stuffed Castle Peppers," "Castle Nacho Grande," "Castle Casserole," "Meat Loaf Supreme," "Rolled Castle Steak," "Hamburger and Zucchini Casserole," "White Castle Vidalia Dip," "Breakfast Castle Casserole," "Swedish Castle Casserole," "Turkey Stuffing," and "Slider Bread."  As if this wasn't down-turn enough in cultural mores, the same pamphlet urges "If you've created your own 'masterpiece' with White Castle hamburgers, drop us a line.  You could be published in our next cookbook . . . ," etc., etc.  As the late New Yorker writer and Algonquin Round Table habitue Dorothy Parker used to comment, "Tonstant weader fwowed up!"


04/25/19 09:50 AM #3963    

 

Paul Simons

Phil I am both amused and delighted that you clearly understand the importance of the White Castle hamburger in the progress of civilization. I gladly accept the history you cite for the existence of the 5 holes. The action of the hot vapors is an example of serendipity that in my opinion rivals the discovery of X-rays by Roentgen a long time ago. By the way, I will be maintaining the traditional spelling - 'hamburger' - despite the introduction of 'hamberder' by one self-proclaimed Nobel Peace Prize laureate over whom enough ink has been spilled to simulate the effects of a stationary hurricane over a West Texas town that never gets much rain but there's no global warming, is there.

Cincinnati has so much to be proud of. White Castles, Pete Rose, Skyline, and this guy. I have to say that like White Castle, the chili parlors are open late and smell so good. I have been to Camp Washington Chili and I love it - but no more than the other chili emporia which make Cincinnati the greatest city on earth.



 

 


04/25/19 01:58 PM #3964    

 

Steven Levinson

Speaking of White Castle and the progress of civilization, do you remember when White Castle got busted for using horse meat, which apparently doesn't brown when you cook it?  That was bright.  And am I wrong that during our WHHS years, Cincinnati's White Castles, or some of them, wouldn't serve black people?


04/25/19 02:26 PM #3965    

 

Paul Simons

All I could find was a complaint alleging unequal coupon requirements, recently, at a Chicago location. Nothing on the Wikipedia page about racism. In general on this topic I'm still waiting for that first stone to be cast by that blameless person. I don't see how anyone living their life in this incredibly racist country could be totally innocent of any trace of it.

Re: horse meat - nothing I could see on Wikipedia about it. But I'm at work, limited time to peruse. Again in general I subscribe to the rule that the more extreme the accusation is, the more conclusive the evidence must be. If anyone has reputable links to such evidence, of a Cincinnati White Castle discriminating ethnically or of any of their restaurants serving horse meat, bring it on. I realize there are more powerful search tools than what I have access to which is just Google.

04/25/19 09:20 PM #3966    

 

Larry Klein

Funny you guys should mention Camp Washington Chili. I ate there Tuesday evening on my way down 75 to the Reds game. Had a dbl Decker BLT platter. Reds won a game I attended for the first time in 4 years, 7-6 with 11+ strikeouts, so free Larosa's pizza to boot.


04/25/19 11:41 PM #3967    

 

Philip Spiess

Steve and Paul:  White Castle History (Installment 2):  When I read your Forum entry, Steve, I flew to my library (okay, I'm an old man; I trotted -- hmm, no -- I shuffled -- god, no! -- I staggered -- nope, I hadn't had that much Scotch yet, it was still early -- ah! I loped! -- uh, no, too lupine, and too Groucho Marx! -- no, now I've got it:  I ambled casually, even cautiously, into my library, being careful not to step on or trip over the many stacks of piled books that were there on the floor, all of them first editions -- of paperbacks, of course) to check out, in my book on White Castle history (mentioned last night in Post # 3962), the matters of which you wrote.  [Caveat:  I do not know Professor Hogan; therefore, I do not know whether his book was his dissertation, a paid hack job shilling for the White Castle hamburger industry (Heidelberg College is not far from Columbus, White Castle's headquarters), or because he is a "foodie," or because it was a labor of love because he grew up with White Castles.  Ergo, I am just reporting what his book says.]

On the Matter of Horse Meat:  A whole chapter ("White Castle Goes to War") of the book is devoted to food, staff, metal (for the buildings), and other shortages due to World War II (I mentioned some of these in my last post; there were times when beef was quite unavailable, and White Castle had to rely on selling egg sandwiches or grilled cheese).  But even after rationing was lifted by the Truman administration in the post-World War II era, certain shortages continued or came and went (for awhile).  One such was beef (page 119):  "In the wake of this controversy over holes and prices, White Castle also experienced a brief but potentially disastrous horsemeat scare.  Old fears about the quality of ground meat were rekindled when an Indiana newspaper reported the arrest of several meat suppliers who were adding large quantities of horsemeat to their hamburger.  Sales throughout the regional fast-food industry plummeted, forcing the closure of some of the smaller restaurants. . . .  White Castle immediately ran large newspaper ads, reminding its customers that its patties were 100 percent beef, produced by the large and reputable Swift Company [Spiess note:  this was not necessarily true under Swift or Armour in the 19th century; cf. Upton Sinclair's The Jungle and the work of Harvey Wiley under Teddy Roosevelt] under strict government supervision. . . .  Nevertheless, much of the public stayed far away from all types of ground meat. . . .  Because of its damage-control advertising, White Castle's sales suffered only marginally, but its operators were besieged by endless horseburger jokes. . . .  Another customer ordered, 'Saddle me two to go.'  White Castle endured the joking because its customers kept buying. . . .  Just as the horsemeat scare was subsiding in the Indiana and Chicago area, rumors briefly surfaced in Minneapolis claiming that White Castle itself used horsemeat in its hamburgers.  Sparked by an anonymous tip to the Minnesota State Heath Department, these rumors were quickly quieted when state inspectors found no supporting evidence."  Five months later the trial of the horsemeat culprits took place.  "Fortunately, White Castle's solid reputation for quality enabled it to survive the scare relatively unscathed."

On the Matter of Serving Black People:  Of course, I was of high school age when I started going to White Castles by myself or with my father (before that, my father had just brought them home) to the White Castle in Camp Washington or to the White Castle on the northeast corner of Reading Road and East McMillan (?).  I do not recall a time when I did not see African-Americans among the customers therein.  Indeed, my father used to josh with some of them as we waited in line for our order.  But to quote Professor Hogan (page 165):  "Racial unrest and conflict more directly affected White Castle than other fast-food chains in the 1960s because most of the outlets of the leading franchised chains were located in predominantly white suburbia, whereas most of White Castle's restaurants were in urban neighborhoods that had become heavily African American since World War II.  Although White Castle never segregated its restaurants and was long known among African Americans as a place where they would be readily served, a frequent complaint arose in the early 1960s that White Castle employed very few black workers.  In fact, in many cities the company had no black employees, which was particularly troubling as blacks comprised an increasingly large percentage of White Castle's customer base."  In short, after a brief New York City boycott in 1963, "White Castle actively started recruiting more black workers and soon achieved an acceptable racial balance in its workforce."

The Green Books:  This seems the appropriate place to mention one of my birthday presents from my son last month:  two editions of The Negro Motorist [later, The Negro Travelers'] Green Book:  Guide for Travel & Vacations.  Because the era of "Jim Crow" and segregation denied so many African-Americans places to stay, dine, drink, shop, enjoy night clubs, find welcoming barbershops or hair salons, or even utilize automotive service stations when they desired to travel, one Victor H. Green in 1936 began to publish this series of annual guides (much like the AAA and Duncan Hines guides for white folk in the same period) for African-Americans to find "safe houses" (almost like the "Underground Railroad" of a century earlier) where they would be welcomed when traveling throughout the United States.  My son had purchased four in reprint and offered me two as my present; I selected the 1940 edition and the 1959 edition (yes, obviously still necessary in that year).  Looking in both of them at the Cincinnati entries, I recognized, in the 1940 guide, none of the 5 hotels, 1 tourist home, 2 restaurants, 3 taverns, 1 drug store, 1 barber shop, or 2 beauty parlors listed (although I recognized most of their addresses).  By the 1959 guide, out of 4 hotels listed, I recognized the Y.W.C.A. (but the Y.M.C.A. was not listed); nor did I recognize any of the listings of 1 tourist home or 8 restaurants (White Castle was not mentioned -- perhaps it was generally known?).

And Another Note for Paul on the Cooking of Those Burgers:  From Hogan's book (pages 103-104):  "In a further attempt to save meat [during World War II], [Billy] Ingram [White Castle's founder] also introduced a new method for cooking the hamburgers . . . referred to as "the New York style" for its place of origin, which differed from the old one in that the patty was flipped to cook on both sides.  With this new method, onions were spread all over the griddle, and the patty was placed on top of them, with the buns directly on top of the patties.  The reason for this change was both to save time by cooking all the sandwich components together and to minimize the waste from the patties, which broke apart while being flipped."

I could go on (as you know), but, as I've written too much already, I'll just say to Larry that Camp Washington Chili was one of my grandfather's favorite places to stop by for carry-out in the 1950s, as he worked nearby at the Reliable Castings Corp. on Spring Grove Avenue at the foot of Brashears Street.


04/26/19 07:46 AM #3968    

 

Paul Simons

Thanks for the research Phil. At this time it appears that there was no conspiring between White Castle management and any purveyors of horse meat. And it appears that there was no barrier to anyone's right to purchase the product. Concerning hiring practices, it appears that when concerns were voiced, they were addressed. No collusion, no conspiracy. And, most tellingly, no need to hide anything, no obstruction. Looking at the entire history, from the founding of the company to the present instant, I can't say there was anything like a 'witch hunt', but there were baseless allegations that proved to be just that - baseless allegations. Were they unfounded allegations? Baseless and unfounded? Yes, they're synonymous. But were they scurrilous? That cannot be determined without additional data. One could yearn for similar outcomes in other matters as well, but such yearning might likely go unfulfilled.

About the Reds Larry - they will be here in Philly in June. I hope they have plenty of stretchers, bandages, and alcohol to blunt the pain of 3 straight losses - if that happens. See, I can't really "talk smack" because I know that no matter how good a player or a team is there are enormous elements of luck and chance which make it interesting in the first place. And I was thrilled to see Tiger Woods win the way he did. That gives me hope - it ain't over until it's over. Not by a long shot. At least I hope so.


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