Philip Spiess

Having apparently exhausted comments on the WHHS lunchroom and its indigestible offerings, we now turn to the Walnut Hills Latin classes and their indigestible offerings.  (Yes, I know some of you, such as Dale Gieringer and Kathy Betz Elifrits, will disagree with me on this).  That I came to Walnut Hills to learn, among other things, the Latin language, so that I could take my place amongst classical scholars, is not in dispute; that I learned it so as to be able to use it facilely, is much more indeterminate.

Although Julius Caesar may have been a world-historical figure (see Thomas Carlyle on the subject of heroes and hero-worship), his writing style, most notably in his Gallic Wars, was plebian at best; he crossed a linguistic Rubicon ("Alea Jacta Est") in writing it.  But that is beside my present point:  I wish to throw out, for your consideration and comment, a passacaglia by that estimable American cultural critic, H. L. Mencken; this is from his essay "Classical Learning" (1936):

"And in most universities Latin retains something of the academic respectability that it had in the year 1350.  To be sure, all of the boys are not forced to master it, but those who do so are still thought to be more refined and scholarly than those who do not.

". . .  But not a single soul . . . ever ventured to argue that acquiring its complicated and irrational grammar was an elevating intellectual exercise, or that the literature written in it was better than any other literature.  These imbecilities were invented after Latin had ceased to be useful. . . .  No rational man can go through the endless volumes of the Loeb Library [the Loeb Classical Library, publishing the classics of Greek and Latin literature in their original texts and English translation, is still available through the Harvard University Press] without concluding that the Romans were an essentially dull and practical people, without much more fancy in them than a Congressman or a cow doctor."

Your thoughts on the value of the study of Latin to you?

Judy Holtzer (Knopf)

Basic knowledge of Latin is a big help with ponderous medical terminology. Don't you agree Jon? Aside from that, it has a certain lilt if you got as far as "Arma virumque cano ..."  Foo, I have to work to impress my kids, and use Latin shamelessly.

Nancy Messer

While I tolerated taking Latin, it was not anything I excelled in and was very happy to be finished with it.  After leaving WHHS and being exposed to other things, I realized how useful Latin was and then wished I had paid better attention.  Anyone in the health sciences or law deals with it all the time and having had Latin helps enormously.  When I was in pharmacy school the professor was covering the parts of the nephron in the kidney. He mentioned the afferent and efferent arterioles and then told the class his way of remembering which was which.  If he had asked me how I remember, I would have told him I took Latin.  I didn't need a special way to remember.

Paul Simons

I have been having a tough time trying to reconcile “sursum ad summum” with “cogito ergo sum” while sitting at a not-very-ergonomically-designed workstation. Whose idea was it to invent a new language, throw in this and that from various other languages, and call the resulting hot mess “English”, and allow rich idiots to speak it?

Richard Murdock

On the subject of taking Latin, I agree that there was value is learning Latin at WHHS.   My memory is that it was required for 3 years ?   is that right ?  Anyway, as I look back on that requirement I would say that while there was clearly some value in studying Latin, I believe there would have been more value in taking some other course of study - such as Spanish or Chinese.   Someone told me recently that between English, Chinese and Spanish you cover 40% of the world's population.  So while I think a semester perhaps two of Latin would still be valuable, I think other courses would have been a better use of our limited time as students at WHHS. 

I have to add my appreciation to Dave Buchholz for his photos.  You truly have a gift for taking amazing photos, Dave.  Keep up the great work !

Stephen (Steve) Dixon

The lunchroom? I put it all out of my mind years ago.

Except for the cute little glass milk bottles, like miniatures of quart bottles that we could still get delivered on our doorstep back in those days.

Wow! It was a long time ago.

Ann Shepard (Rueve)

I haven't commented but the recent discussions have prompted me to urge everyone, who hasn't toured our school recently, to come to Cincinnati and take a tour! 

I posted a small picture of the pool, but that was just a small hint of the renovations. The "lunch room" is now an elegant facility, a venue nice enough to hold tribute dinners for the Alumni Foundation. It has been completely remodeled. There is a glass enclosed shop where visitors can purchase "spirit wear" on display. 

Of course, the athletic wing, that is north of the original campus, is jaw dropping, with the new gym, fitness center, natatorium, stadium and track!

Even the original building, though familiar (the statues are still there), has been updated for the students to use the latest technology. The days of the teacher rolling a tv monitor in to watch a closed circuit broadcast from WCET are long passed. 

AND, I've been told that if you have connections, you can have the Steinway moved from the recital room if you want to propose to your beloved in the library. 

Philip Spiess

High school students are making proposals of marriage to each other? (Getting a jump on the competition, no doubt!)  And playing on a Steinway in the library?  What ever happened to the "Silence!" rule?

I cannot say whether it was a Steinway or a Baldwin concert grand on the WHHS stage, circa 1961 (the one the now-disgraced Jimmy Levine played on, to impressive effect), but I am about to tell you what happened to it.

Some bright-eyed, though not bright-brained, lad on the Stage Crew -- I think said "genius" was Don Lee, a year ahead of us -- got the not so bright idea that it would be a fine and fun thing to attach ropes to the concert grand piano on stage and hoist it up to the height of the "grid," that massive iron-girdered platform high above the stage from which all of the light battens and scenery battens and curtains and whatnot -- the things that were dropped into place on stage when needed and whisked out of sight when not -- were suspended.

No sooner said than done -- by some other of the idle brains on Stage Crew ("An idle brain is the Devil's playground," it is said).  (Full disclosure, as they say in The Washington Post:  I was a member of Stage Crew at this time, and obviously present, as I am reporting the incident, but I was not a participant, having great respect for Signor Cristofori's venerated invention -- the "soft-loud" -- which helped make Beethoven great.)

We watched the great grand (Baldwin or Steinway, as it were) sail aloft, as if lifted on wings of song (mind you, it had to be seriously counter-weighted at the batten rail to get it to move at all), and then -- but perhaps you, the reader, anticipate me -- and then . . . with a slow-motion splitting and shearing of the none-too-sturdy rope supporting it, fascinating to watch, it descended.

I say it descended, but this was not in slow motion.  It was fast, furious, loud, and devastating.  I thank God to this day that there was no one under it, for it hit the stage with a crash that shook the room and demolished the instrument.  First, the three sturdy legs which supported it snapped off; the pedals and their support shot off into the wings.  Then the keys of the keyboard peeled out of their traditional position like something in an early "Silly Symphonies" cartoon and scattered themselves about the stage.  The music stand above them flew up in the air.  And with one final grand movement, like Leviathan slipping back into the sea, the heavy folded-back top detached itself from the piano's main body (its iron frame of strings), and ponderously threw itself into the orchestra pit.

I watched this debacle from somewhere mid-Auditorium.  Though the possibility of this occurence had crossed my mind on hearing the initial proposal being made, the reality, when it did occur, was far more real than the mere probability.  I had seen nothing quite so spectacular since watching the film of the Washington Tacoma Narrows Bridge ("Galloping Gertie") flagellate itself and self-destruct in 1940.  I've tried to describe the scene for you -- but I guess you had to have been there.

Mary Vore (Iwamoto)

I arrived at WHHS as a junior, too late to take any Latin courses.  I'm sure it would have been helpful, but haven't felt all that deprived.  I do recall a course in my first year of graduate school - neuroanatomy - where we had to memorize thousands (or so it seemed) of structures, nerves, nuclei, etc, etc - all with Latin names.  The last lecture was given by the department chairman (British - probably Oxford or Cambridge), who berated us all as ignoramuses because we hadn't taken Latin AND Greek as part of any decent education! 

Steven Levinson

Phil:  So what's so strange about high school students making marriage proposals to each other?  I did . . . successfully!

Paul Simons

And these days, teachers and students eloping together. We didn't have that, as far as I know. As far as I know. Van Halen had that one covered - "Hot For Teacher" - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TpLzW7fm1c0

Jerry Ochs

Because I studied Latin I understand what connects carnival, reincarnation, chili con carne, and carnation.  So far that knowledge has not come in handy. I also understand the relevance of declining nouns to modern life. Nominative: Hi!  What's your name?  Dative: Would you like to go to dinner with me? Genitive: Wanna go back to my place for sex?  Accusative: I think you slipped something into my drink.  Ablative: Get away from me!

Philip Spiess

Steve Levinson:  And a good job you made of it!  Congratulations!

Paul Simons:  I believe the language to which you refer [Post #3453] was cobbled together by the Anglo-Saxons (Part A:  Old English), and were they ever a mixed breed!; then mutilated and "eliticized" by the Norman French (Part B: Middle English), a.k.a. "the Conquerors"; and then elevated to its present status by the Elizabethans (Part C:  Standard, or Modern, English), notably by one Will Shakespeare (a.k.a. Sir Francis Bacon, Christopher Marlowe, the Earl of Oxford, and "the Dark Lady of the Sonnets"), playwright and player, and apparently a man of many parts (if not aliases).  And then came the Americans -- ach! go figure!

Jerry Ochs:  Go some year to Mardi Gras in New Orleans -- "carnival" -- and your knowledge will come in handy (namely, W. C. Handy, the great jazz musician) to reconnect with "chili con carne" (one of the street foods, though our "Skyline" is better) and "reincarnation," which occurs a day or so after, when you recover from your hangover.  Drive there from wherever you land on the West Coast from Japan, and you will not only become a "Roads Scholar," but you will indeed see -- and participate in -- this great "car nation" (a la Jack Kerouac and Willy Nelson)!  (Thanks, Detroit! -- or is it Japan?)

Paul Simons

All I can say is that I am relieved that the conversation has finally arrived at the ultimate reality of hedonistic carnality, the carnation in the lapel of our sorely afflicted nation, the quintessential, monumental, culmination of the Cincinnati instantiation, also known as CINCINNATI CHILI!! If the cow's destiny is to meet its demise, what better justification than what our city, and no other, is able to do with the gift it provides? And if Skyline and the rest aren't enough, if the jury demands even more proof, two words:  WHITE CASTLE!! God smiled on us when He, She, or It allowed us to grow up in absolute culinary capital of the universe, in my opinion.

Chuck Cole

Ah--Skyline Chili and White Castle.  Too bad they weren't served in the WHHS cafeteria.  Would have been a clear improvement over that which we were presented.  And we might add some Graeter's ice cream.

Reaching even deeper into the culinary past--do any of you who went to North Avondale remember hamburger shortcake?  Awesome lunch.  A first cousin to Sloppy Joe but, IMHO, substantially better.

Dale Gieringer

     Let me put in a word for Latin: AVE!   Not only did I find it enlightening, but also enjoyable, especially Miss Hope's AP Latin class.   Coincidentally, I'm currently in the midst of reading Lucretius'  "De Rerum Natura," a sublime philosophical poem that beats the Bible in my book any day, and which has long been on my read-in-retirement bucket list.    In elegant hexameter verse, Lucretius  lays out an inspired, proto-scientific vision of the world -  controlled by the free motion of invisible atoms, not mythical gods -   with insights anticipating  modern theories of evolution,  quantum mechanics, and extraterrestial worlds -- combined with philosophical wisdom regarding our mortal place in the world inspired by his teacher, Epicurus.   Lucretius' verse is better than Virgil IMO,  though sprinkled with early Latin archaicisms.  It begins:

     "Aenidum genetrix, hominom divomque voluptas, alma Venus / caeli subter labentia signa quae mare navigerum, quae terras frugiferentis concelebras/ per te quoniam genus omne animantum concipitur visitque exortum lumina solis."  

In John Dryden's translation:  
"Delight of Humane kind, and Gods above
Parent of Rome,  Propitious Queen of Love
Whose vital pow'r, Air, Earth and Sea supplies
And breeds what e'r is born beneath the rowling Skies
For every kind, by thy prolifique might,/Springs, and beholds the Regions of the light...."    

   Like many  (though certainly not all) fellow students, I have found Latin useful for vocabulary in English and all Romance languages, not to mention the Germans, who are fond of Latin terms.    It is also helpful for grammar, Latin having the basic grammatic structure of all Romance and Indo-European languages, as well as English, which still has relics of the genitive and accusative cases,  the subjunctive mood, sequence of tenses etc.   My daughter credits high school Latin with helping her immeasurably with English grammar.  Like myself, she is stronger on written than spoken language, which makes a difference.

   Mrs. Renfro made us memorize a passage about the value of liberal studies from Cicero's oration Pro Archia:  "At haec studia adulescentiam alunt, senectutem oblectant."    "These studies nourish youth and assuage old age."  This resonates with my own personal experience with Latin, but I can't fail to mention another old Roman adage that Mrs Renfro was fond of quoting:  "De Gustibus Non Est Disputandum"   - "There should be no disputing about tastes."   My experience with Latin is admittedly that of a dwindling minority  (not to mention the infinitesimal minority of remaining speakers).    There's no doubt that Spanish, Chinese,  French, Arabic,  Russian and German are all much more useful in the modern world.  Still, let's not forget what we were taught in school:  sursum ad summum - et veritas.

Philip Spiess

I would not presume to suggest that Dale's reference to "Sursum ad summum" -- "Rise to the highest" -- in any way suggests his promotion of, and, I believe, use of, Cannabis (to flip into Latin, since we're on that subject) -- so I won't!

Chuck Cole has hit on the great triumvirate (OMG, more Latin! -- though none of the things I'm about to mention are "vir" -- men -- in Latin!) of Cincinnati culinary cuisine:  Skyline Chili, White Castle Hamburgers, and Graeter's Ice Cream.  All three of these things are known, and available (if you know where to look), in the greater Washington, D. C. area.  Of the three, only White Castle hamburgers do not have their origin in Cincinnati (if you look back about two years on this Forum, you will find my little piece on White Castle history, a company which introduced, not only what it now calls "the original sliders," but also, during World War II, "half and half" for its coffee, when cream was generally unavailable; it also introduced pre-fabricated aluminum buildings, novel for their time, which is why my father used to refer to dining at White Castle as "Whitey Castelli's Aluminum Room.")

Paul:  "Where's the beef?"  Well, we all know where it is, don't we?  (Skyline Chili and White Castle hamburgers, and maybe Frisch's Big Boys.)  But what about "Porkopolis," that pre-Civil War designation for Cincinnati (not Latin, but semi-Greek, that!)?  The hogs, fed with the corn produce from Indiana and Ohio fields, used to roam the streets of Cincinnati, and were its garbage collectors in those days, as they scarfed up anything they found available to eat (it's surprising there weren't more outbreaks of trichinosis -- oh, goodness, now I've introduced a modern Latin word), ending up in Cincinnati's great slaughter houses, which were -- seriously -- in the dissection of the pigs into processed meat, a "disassembly line," the true precurser of Henry Ford's later automobile "assembly line." Indeed, he considered opening his automobile plant in Cincinnati, but (thank god!) he took it to Detroit (and look at Detroit today).

And one last word about Latin in our native community:  The first name for the central settlement in John Cleves Symmes' Miami Purchase was "Losantiville."  This was a multi-lingual portmanteau word compiled by John Filson, Cincinnati pioneer and later founder of Louisville.  It meant (it does need explanation) "City (French=ville) opposite (Latin=anti) the mouth (Greek=os) of the Licking (English=L) River" -- go figure (cf., Alexander Pope:  "A little learning is a dangerous thing.").  When the first governor of the Old Northwest Territory (what became Ohio, Indiana, Illinois, Michigan, Wisconsin, and half of Minnesota), General Arthur St. Clair, 15th President of the Continental Congress, landed at Losantiville in 1788 and heard its name, he said, "Losantiville be damned!  Let it be called Cincinnati!"  He was naming it after the Society of the Cincinnati, the organization of Revolutionary War officers, who, like George Washington (who was a founding member), had, like the famed Roman general Cincinnatus (whose original marble statue disappeared from City Hall in the 1920s, but whose bronze replacement statue by Eleftherios Karkadoulias now stands on the Cincinnati waterfront), been called to public service in war, but had, after the war was over, returned to his plow as a citizen farmer (so all the American officers).  The headquarters of the national Society of the Cincinnati is in the former Larz Anderson House in Washington, D. C.; Larz Anderson himself was a prominent Cincinnatian at the turn of the last century.

Paul Simons

No doubt the Latin was useful - discussing it has opened up all these avenues of serious inquiry and fascinating information. It applies to me since I lived near Losantiville Rd and on visits to Cincinnati would take a swim at the Golf Manor pool near that road. It's closed now but the Norwood pool is fabulous - adult swim 15 minutes of every hour.

It seems that Latin remains with us in high-sounding mottos and aphorisms. I think Woodward HS's motto was "Esse Quam Videri" - To Be Rather Than To Seem. And the Marines - "Semper Fidelis" or as they say Semper Fi - Faithful Always. Now if you actually physically did enact "sursum ad summum" and looked around up there, you would see something rather the opposite of these mottos. You'd see a "reality show" that was anything but being, rather than seeming or appearing. With a negative value assigned to "faithful always". You could look out far and wide, and see downtown Porkopolis, suburban Porkopolis, rural Porkopolis, in all directions, as far as the eye could see. Notice I haven't mentioned a single holder of a single office - no need.

Chuck Cole

There was a piece on All Things Considered (or Morning Edition) a while back about the role that chili played in Detroit history.  I had no idea this was the case, but Detroit does not appear to have developed chili to the depth seen in Cincinnati, with 3-way and 4-way, etc.  I've wondered who really moved it into the culinary stratosphere first and whether the first city to go big on chili influenced it's movement to the other.  

Dale Gieringer

Unlike DC, California is deprived of Cincinnati's culinary trio of gifts - Graeters, chili, and White Castle.  On the other hand, I believe the Big Boy chain started here - not under the name of Frisch's, but with the same silly big boy logo.  And what a shame it is that none of Cincinnati's breweries managed to achieve national status, although I've heard that Boston's Sam Adams brewery was founded by a WHHS grad.

Gail Weintraub (Stern)

Dale, let's not forget about California originated and now west coast based In-N-Out Burger. It's one of my favorites! If you are a carnivore and haven't tried a Double Double, it's a must! Always makes the annual All American best burger list--even in competition with $25 restaurant burgers.

For me, our three year Latin requirement established a firm basis for sentence construction and language roots. Glad that it was part of my education. However, as much as I love the French language, I now wish that I had taken Spanish. In California, Spanish is definitely the second language and would have been helpful when caring for my hospital patients.

Paul Simons

I just have to add that the etymological gymnastics behind "Losantiville" Phil is as mind-boggling an experience as anything that this internet - our Lord and Conjoiner - has ever provided. I say that as a person who has seen some gymnastics of various types on this profusion of pixels.

Hamburgers - I may never experience that California carnivore's delight that Gail mentioned but I now remember  burgers at The Toddle House as being pretty good. However I maintain that when Dunkin' Donuts was the new kid on the block they had a Bacon Bleu Cheese Burger that was to die for. I might have mentioned it before and will again. But - if I knew then what I know now about cholesterol and arterial plaque I would not be able to talk about it because I would have avoided it like the plague.

This takes me to Graeter's. It is the best ice cream, period. Granted. But there's a wide blue line between a White Castle or a Skyline 4-way and Graeter's butter pecan. It is the line between blue collar, working class Norwood and upscale, J. Crew Hyde Park Square. Here in the Philly area I have to include cheesesteaks and ribs along with the 4-ways in contrast to Graeter's and the place here which has 100 types of Belgian and Czech Pilsners. Since we are having a national identity crisis these matters need to be considered. Can we be a hardworkin' NFL watchin' nation with Graeter's Ice Cream class? Can the dream come true?

Philip Spiess

I haven't really addressed yet my response to learning Latin.  Yes, of course, it was important to my education, not the least because it allowed me to access many Latin-oriented sources (as it still does) in the course of my historical studies, but it also allowed me to access Italian and French sources as well through cognates (to say nothing of being able to figure out Italian and French menus, wine lists, and opera librettos).  And, yes, I eventually took French in graduate school, as I needed it to progress to doctoral exams, but knowing Latin helped my learning French (German was my other doctoral language).

Paul:  Thank you for reminding me of the Toddle House hamburgers.  In my early to mid-high school years, I attended Williams YMCA in Walnut Hills.  I loved to go into its boiler room, which had a wonderful functioning steam engine -- to what purpose, I don't know -- and to smell the steam (note, Richard Montague).  Afterwards, my mother and I would often lunch at the nearby Toddle House (was it on Victory Parkway, across from the Hotel Alms?).  I always got their hamburgers, which, smeared with yellow mustard, was a favorite meal.  Oh, and Paul, the beauty of Graeter's is that you can order it nationally and have it shipped to you!  Just go on line to their Website and check it out!  As for the Philly area, the Twisted Tail on Headhouse Square in Philadelphia has a great Bourbon whiskey menu and great flights of Bourbon tasting available.  And Paul:  food and drink surpass all political and class styles and preferences: "Chacun a son gout!"  (See, I did learn French!)

Chuck:  Although I write many of these historical blurbs from memory, this is one I looked up on line:  Skyline Chili was founded in Cincinnati in 1949 by a Greek, Nicholas Lambrinides.  Many folk food writers around the country erroneously attribute Cincinnati chili's "special ingredient" to being chocolate (a la Mexico), but, in fact, at least as far as Skyline Chili goes, it is cinnamon (I have this directly by word of mouth from the head of the Blue Ash, Ohio, Skyline Chili outlet).  But chili in Cincinnati goes way back in history before Skyline; it was one of the staples at pre-Prohibition bars as the "free lunch" (heavily salted or heavily spiced to encourage -- even force -- you to buy more beer or whiskey).  And there were also street vendors, in the days before Prohibition, of chili, "wienie wurst," and other "hot-spiced" snack foods to encourage you to "wet your whistle" at the local Beer Stubes (over one hundred on lower Vine Street alone, notably in the "Over the Rhine" district, before Prohibition -- but many of these were considered respectable family establishments).

Dale:  For a brief period, you could buy Cincinnati's "Christian Moerlein Golden Ale" in Washington; it was really good.  What I never found out was, given that Christian Moerlein Golden Ale was a pre-Prohibition beer, sold in earthenware bottles (which are now collectors' items), whether the company that now produces it had resurrected a Victorian formula, or whether it had just secured the name and were producing something new.  (Still don't know, but it was damn good beer!)

[Perhaps at some point I'll tell you all about my imbibing excavations into Cincinnati's Cornie Hauck's (a major Cincinnati pre-Prohibition whiskey operation) liquor stash in the Cincinnati Historical Society's vault in Eden Park, and my same personal endeavor in President Woodrow Wilson's wine cellar in his S Street house (after he left the presidency) in Washington, D. C.]

Cornelia (Teedee) Spelman

Hello classmates,  I am trying to reply to comments some of you (kindly) made on my page, and though I click the "post comment" button they seem to disappear!  Help?  Maybe the comments are going to YOUR pages?  I will go and look

Paul Simons